Orphaned 1800's Longines PW Movements - What To Do With Them?

[John Hinkey]

Yes it is a beautiful watch movement.

I and got it for <$100 . . . that's crazy, but this is what's happening to very nice movements that get stripped of their gold case (and unfortunately the stem/crown) and are then left without a home.

 

[MrRoundel]

I agree that your new acquisition is a great find at that price. There used to be someone around here that concentrated on various Mermod & Jaccard movements. I don't recall who it was, but I haven't seen them discussed much of late. Congrat's.

 

[John Hinkey]

I'm not insanely jealous. I am very happy for you on this marvellous find.

I'm not game to search for such things. I couldn't afford most but this has indeed caused me to think, maybe there is one out there for me.

I wasn't even going to bid on this because I thought for sure it would go for $200-$400, but not so. I threw in a max bid of $100 and no one else wanted it that much.
Not bragging that I got it - just showing that I was shocked!

To me these movements are a vanishing work of art from the late 1800s that were not mass produced (at least relative to something like the very nice Hamilton 912 which there are a gazillion of them it seems).

I'm collecting movements to make cases for. On another forum over 50 people voiced interest in either having a 3D printed case very similar to what I've shown above for their orphaned movements or purchasing a complete working printed case and nice looking higher end working movement that otherwise would be in a couple thousand $$ gold case and completely out of their reach.

I need to stop collecting movements and start making some dedicated cases for the ones I have so far . . .

 

[PatH]

I agree that your new acquisition is a great find at that price. There used to be someone around here that concentrated on various Mermod & Jaccard movements. I don't recall who it was, but I haven't seen them discussed much of late. Congrat's.

Here's a thread with some Mermod & Jaccard watches by various makers. Perhaps John Hinkey could add pics of his, or a link to his post, to the thread.

 

[John Hinkey]

Latest design concept with independently bolted on front/back and setting lever access rubber plug:

So how I have three basic designs:
(1) One-side front/back bolted with rubber setting lever access plug
(2) Two-side front/back bolted with rubber setting lever access plug
(3) Bolted on back + hinged front design cover with thumb screw to close the front cover

Any of these designs can be scaled to slightly smaller and larger movements (38mm movement is shown) as well as stem set/stem wound, and negative set designs (assuming I can find the stem+sleeves needed).

The materials can be black, white, clear and grey. Theoretically the plastic can be metal coated with nickel, brass, silver, gold if you want to get really fancy.

Anyways, I'm going to fully print and assemble all three cases and then take pictures of each with the movement installed and then solicit more feedback. I will then print a a clear version of one design as has been requested.

Phew. Lots of work.

At some point I will transition this to printing cases for my slowly growing collection of orphaned movements.

Thanks for the thoughts and encouragement.

- John

 

[John Hinkey]

Here's a thread with some Mermod & Jaccard watches by various makers. Perhaps John Hinkey could add pics of his, or a link to his post, to the thread.

I will do that!

 

[John Hinkey]

I will do that!

Did it!

 

[thesnark17]

I am fascinated by the direction you are going here. This is exactly the sort of thing that I would be interested in doing for my old orphans. Keep up the good work!

 

[John Hinkey]

May not be to everyone's taste, but I like this latest version the best:

There is an option to use black anodized stainless screws and washers, but I kind of like the bright stainless look against the black.
This is fully functional with the removable rubber plug (it will be tethered so you can't lose it when adjusting the time) covering the setting lever.

Deep black, clear and white cases to print next. The crown is printed plastic, but I've also printed the crown in rubber, which has a nice feel to it when winding.

I've completed the hinged design, but it has some problems that require changing. I think the rubber setting lever access plug is the way to go though.

Thoughts? Opinions?

- John

PS - None of the female screw holes in the main body are tapped - I use glued in threaded knurled brass inserts so that the threads will be durable.

 

[John Hinkey]

Also just picked up last night this orphaned 43mm size Agassiz beauty for an incredibly low price. Supposedly runs well. Just needs a stem:
View attachment 734614
View attachment 734615

It looks like I'll have to pull it apart to figure out what stem is required and likely have to make one (modify a stem that is close-enough).

- J

PS - This appears to be a positive set movement - do you agree since it has the stem release screw visible?

This one just came in the mail. The seller did a pretty crappy job of packing it and I almost lost the seconds hand since it had come loose inside the partially enclosed bubble wrap. The naked movement was just very loosely sandwiched between two pieces of carboard with a loose overwrap of bubble wrap and tape. It was very loose inside. Lucky nothing was damaged.

The dial is kind of funky as it appears that is has no feet that I can see and just sits on a rim around the periphery of the movement with a small key feature keeping it from rotating and the seconds hole aligned with the seconds pin, thus being held in place by the case.

I have no stem, but rotating the movement it starts the balance swinging and it ticks for a bit, though at low amplitude.

So this looks like an adventure.

Anyone have a similar movement that has no dial feet?

Now we need to find a stem . . .

Anything missing in the winding/setting works?

 

[DaveyG]

The dial with no feet is not uncommon, they simply snap on, although the dial plate does look to have provision for dial feet with those countersunk holes at 2 & 8 o'clock (as viewed). I agree with roughbarked that it is in the hand set position and you might find that the amplitude increases somewhat if you either put it in the running position or remove the minute and hour wheels. The barrel arbor does look suspiciously like it has been knocked about a bit and the hole bushed.

 

[John Hinkey]

It appears to be iin the hands set position. Looks as if all that is functioning. An odd set up but appears to be all there.
Got an image of the other side? Anything written on the dial?

What's up with the barrel arbor?

See post above:

 

[John Hinkey]

The dial with no feet is not uncommon, they simply snap on, although the dial plate does look to have provision for dial feet with those countersunk holes at 2 & 8 o'clock (as viewed). I agree with roughbarked that it is in the hand set position and you might find that the amplitude increases somewhat if you either put it in the running position or remove the minute and hour wheels. The barrel arbor does look suspiciously like it has been knocked about a bit and the hole bushed.

I will open this up quickly to try to make a winding/setting stem. We'll see what's up with that barrel arbor. I'm also negotiating on a similar movement (it's slightly smaller) that comes with the winding stem. If so, then I can copy that assuming they are the same or similar enough.
As you all know these can be very adventurous purchases.

On another note, I recently ran across a watch store that had a lot of orphaned higher quality movements. I keep finding more and more high quality naked movements looking for a home . . .

 

[John Hinkey]

I should note that on another pocket watch group it has been said that it's easier to make a case from scratch or to find and modify an existing PW case to find a home for these orphaned movements. Having gotten through a couple of prototype 3D printed cases I still disagree UNLESS you have a movement of a standard size which is close enough of a fit to a standard existing case. Even then many times the winding stem & crown is missing. I still find that this adaptation seems very hard to do.

More to come.

- J

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Anything missing in the winding/setting works?

I also don't think so. Here is how these setting works were applied on larger movements. I think the top retainer/spring is not necessary in your case, but there is a different spring on the left side of yours. This is also a pressure fit dial. Mine is complete & has the stem, although the mechanism is evolved by about 5-7 years--do you think it would be similar enough to view/copy?

Yours is the second I've seen--not a usual Agassiz setup! There are at least 8 distinct (more familiar) setting variations for my movement that all look identical from the back/bridge side, but no parts would cross with mine below. Hope you can see the dial side on the second movement you're considering!

...Anything written on the dial?

The mark on the back of the dial should be "M & M" Possibly a dial maker--someone like More & Meroz? There is also a chance it indicates the selling "brand," and although I have a good candidate I can't connect them yet to this setting mechanism.

 

[John Hinkey]

Quick update:
Still working on the details of gaining access to the lever for time setting. I think I have it worked out and am printing a final black case that I will then print out in different colors (dark black, clear & white):

a real picture coming soon.

- J

 

[John Hinkey]

Anyone have a good diagram or pictures of how the case pin typically engages the movement in a pin set movement?

I've passed up a couple of really nice orphaned movements due to them being pin set, which might be easier to deal with than a lever set movement.
Many of these orphaned movements don't come with the pin and thus I'd have to make one that fits into the 3D printed case.
Thanks for any help with this.

- John

 

[viclip]

The pin essentially resembles a short finishing nail. It just resides with its shank portion poking out of the case hole & with the head portion sitting within an opening in the movement. There's a lever inside that movement opening which the pin pushes when the pin is pushed in by the user.

The spring for the setting mechanism is internal to the movement i.e. the lever which the pin pushes against is spring-loaded rather than the pin itself.

 

[John Hinkey]

Mostly it is a loose pin which can be lost when the movement is taken out of the case. It fits into the case from the inside and is held in by the watch movement.

Thanks!

 

[John Hinkey]

The pin essentially resembles a short finishing nail. It just resides with its shank portion poking out of the case hole & with the head portion sitting within an opening in the movement. There's a lever inside that movement opening which the pin pushes when the pin in pushed in by the user.

The spring for the setting mechanism is internal to the movement i.e. the lever which the pin pushes against is spring-loaded rather than the pin itself.

That's what I was hoping for my 3D printed cases - a simple pin arrangement.
So I shouldn't be afraid of a high end pin-set movement to build a case around - correct?

- John

 

[viclip]

Just bear in mind though that there's apparently no standard position for the pin location, it just depends on whoever designed the movement. At least that's my experience with Swiss/French watches; I haven't any exposure to the relatively few American pin sets that were made. I suspect that there was close liasion between the movement manufacturers & the case makers chosen to house the particular movement.

Commonly for Swiss/French open face cases, the pin location is around either 1 o'clock or 11 o'clock.

 

[John Hinkey]

Just bear in mind though that there's apparently no standard position for the pin location, it just depends on whoever designed the movement. At least that's my experience with Swiss/French watches; I haven't any exposure to the relatively few American pin sets that were made. I suspect that there was close liasion between the movement manufacturers & the case makers chosen to house the particular movement.

Commonly for Swiss/French open face cases, the pin location is around either 1 o'clock or 11 o'clock.

Well, as I've learned each movement, even if theoretically a standard size, is a custom design for a 3D printed case. So a moving pin location, diameter, etc. is just par for the course for this effort.
I found some relatively inexpensive, but high quality (fully jeweled) orphaned pin set movements with nice dials that I'll likely buy to gain experience with pin-set movements. I may also try to make a few of the smaller movements into a wrist (marriage) watch as 3D printing for this is fairly straight forward.

Thanks - John

 

[John Hinkey]

Just grabbed this nice generic swiss pin set PW movement to figure out how to make a 3D printed case work with a pin movement:

 

[viclip]

I hope that the setting pin was included, it'll be of assistance to you

 

[viclip]

This raises another consideration which I hadn't thought of until now.

Not only are the pin hole locations in the case non-standardized.

But also non-standardized are the diameters of the protruding portions of the shanks of the setting pins, which equates to the hole diameter in the case.

There are of course workarounds respecting hole diameter if the intent is to make a generic case however this just needs to be borne in mind.

 

[John Hinkey]

Yes, no pin, will have to find something off the shelf that will substitute. Amazing what there is for a selection of small size/diameter nuts, bolts, washers, pins, springs, etc. that are available off-the-shelf (stainless of various sorts, brass, steel, etc.). My goal is to not make anything custom from metal unless absolutely I have to.

Another adventure.

 

[John Hinkey]

A quick update.
Have been busy with other things, but have managed to print out a white case for the Longines movement that I've shown above in the black case.
Also printed out a better black case (minor mechanical improvements).

What's more interesting is that I'm dabbling in trying to make dials via 3D printing - I have a few excellent movements that I've not been able to find a replacement dial for. Shame - dial all cracked or messed up that holds an extremely nice movement hostage - thus keeping the movement orphaned.

Idea is to 3D print a thin white, porcelain-like dial and either 3D print the numbers/markings directly onto it with the color added/printed later OR print a completely blank dial that can have the graphics applied via waterslide decals (). Or more likely a combination of both.

The dial would be constructed with brass dial blank base with the white thin 3D printed dial either directly printed onto the brass dial blank or glued on. Dial feet would be glued on:

Horotec Watch Dial Feet 10 Pieces

Be prepared to deal with whichever timepieces your customers need worked on. 10 pieces of dial feet from your choice of diameter to fit your job.

www.esslinger.com

It would not be perfect, but from arms length it will look pretty good.

Here's a prototype directly printed onto a brass surface to see how the graphics will come out and how well it will stick to the brass, but first here's the original porcelain dial with the cracks (I'll give it a cleaning treatment to see if I can make the cracks become way less visible and try to salvage it).

Here's the first decent 3D printed dial that I have the graphics printed 0.1mm higher than the dial surface so that the tops can have black and red ink applied to it:

Not perfect, but it could be a way to salvage an very nice movement by re-creating the original dial that came with it.
You can see that my printer, which is not a very expensive one, paired with the right resin can print extremely fine details (that's a 40mm diameter dial).

My plan is to assemble the white colored case with the Longines movement shown way above in it and see how that goes.

Then I have some movements that are better suited to a wrist watch - make them a marriage watch - and 3D print a cool looking wrist watch case.

More to come!

- John

 

[John Hinkey]

A quick update.
Have been busy with other things, but have managed to print out a white case for the Longines movement that I've shown above in the black case.
Also printed out a better black case (minor mechanical improvements).

What's more interesting is that I'm dabbling in trying to make dials via 3D printing - I have a few excellent movements that I've not been able to find a replacement dial for. Shame - dial all cracked or messed up that holds an extremely nice movement hostage - thus keeping the movement orphaned.

Idea is to 3D print a thin white, porcelain-like dial and either 3D print the numbers/markings directly onto it with the color added/printed later OR print a completely blank dial that can have the graphics applied via waterslide decals (). Or more likely a combination of both.

The dial would be constructed with brass dial blank base with the white thin 3D printed dial either directly printed onto the brass dial blank or glued on. Dial feet would be glued on:

Horotec Watch Dial Feet 10 Pieces

Be prepared to deal with whichever timepieces your customers need worked on. 10 pieces of dial feet from your choice of diameter to fit your job.

www.esslinger.com

It would not be perfect, but from arms length it will look pretty good.

Here's a prototype directly printed onto a brass surface to see how the graphics will come out and how well it will stick to the brass, but first here's the original porcelain dial with the cracks (I'll give it a cleaning treatment to see if I can make the cracks become way less visible and try to salvage it).
View attachment 747057

Here's the first decent 3D printed dial that I have the graphics printed 0.1mm higher than the dial surface so that the tops can have black and red ink applied to it:
View attachment 747058
Not perfect, but it could be a way to salvage an very nice movement by re-creating the original dial that came with it.
You can see that my printer, which is not a very expensive one, paired with the right resin can print extremely fine details (that's a 40mm diameter dial).

My plan is to assemble the white colored case with the Longines movement shown way above in it and see how that goes.

Then I have some movements that are better suited to a wrist watch - make them a marriage watch - and 3D print a cool looking wrist watch case.

More to come!

- John

The other thing I can do is print a high resolution inverse of the dial markings using a stiff rubber compound and use it as a stamp to apply the numbers and graphics to a blank dial. This would be an alternative to the traditional dial stamping process. I've already made this kind of stamp in principle:

and I will attempt to make one specifically for PW dial stamp and see how that goes.

- J

 

[John Hinkey]

Playing around with my rendering software:

and a white version:

The cover for the time setting lever can be white too (I can print white or black rubber).

Time to actually assemble the white version of the case - I have all the parts.

- John

 

[WoodyR]

A very cool and much-needed project, John. Like so many others, I also have several gorgeous orphaned PW movements. Thanks for sharing!!

I just binged the thread and have a few thoughts and questions:

- If you went to Xometry to get pricing on anything, they are beyond ridiculous, in my experience.
- Have you done any strength/durability testing with your prints? ... replace the movement with an equal mass of steel (washers?) and handle it roughly? When dropped on a chain, I doubt the metal bow will fail but I wonder about the print where the bow attaches.
- I was told dark pigments make plastic weaker and more flexible.
- I had no idea the 3-D printing learning curve is so steep and expensive! I've been loosely considering ordering a Prusa MINI+ but I think I'll hold off indefinitely, now.

Thanks again!
Woody

 

[John Hinkey]

A very cool and much-needed project, John. Like so many others, I also have several gorgeous orphaned PW movements. Thanks for sharing!!

I just binged the thread and have a few thoughts and questions:

- If you went to Xometry to get pricing on anything, they are beyond ridiculous, in my experience.
Yes, I sent I think just the front cover to a rapid prototyping house for a plastic FDM print and it was like $100. Have not gotten a quote for a 3D resin MSLA part, but I would expect it to be in this ballpark. Hence my purchase of a 3D resin printer.
- Have you done any strength/durability testing with your prints? ... replace the movement with an equal mass of steel (washers?) and handle it roughly? When dropped on a chain, I doubt the metal bow will fail but I wonder about the print where the bow attaches.
No, but that was one of the plans. I've yanked on the bow pretty good and it does not feel weak at all, but that's just by hand. I've dropped these parts and they seem not to care. Clearly these will not be a strong as a brass case, but they will absorb a lot more shock than brass will (brass will transmit the shock to the movement and the crystal). I plan on using Sapphire windows in some of the cases which will be virtually un-breakable.
I plan on making strength testing samples of the materials that I settle on so I can determine their strength and brittleness vs. different printing and curing parameters.
- I was told dark pigments make plastic weaker and more flexible.
I'm using expensive engineering resins that are both "strong" and "tough", though it's all relative. So far I've been pretty impressed with some of these resins. A lot of the strength is determined by the final curing. I don't think dark resins are necessarily weaker and more flexible than clear. It depends on the exact resin - the strength and toughness properties of these resins is all over the place and can be very confusing.
I'm also looking at very high end engineering resins that are even stronger than what I'm using now (what I'm using now is way stronger than resins used for figurines - which is typically 1/2 to 1/4 the price of my $100/liter resins.)
- I had no idea the 3-D printing learning curve is so steep and expensive! I've been loosely considering ordering a Prusa MINI+ but I think I'll hold off indefinitely, now.
Glad I went the 3D resin (MSLA, DLP, etc.) route as the part quality on such small parts is fantastic, lots of color and material options, pretty fast printing, etc. It is much more cumbersome than FDM (I had an FDM printed front cover made for free and I was not impressed).
Yes, the learning curve is very steep regarding the materials, the machine characteristics, the printing/curing process AND the waste disposal process. I finally feel reasonably capable to print most anything, but it's taken me many months.

Thanks again!
Woody

See above!

 

[WoodyR]

See above!

Thanks for the thorough reply, John!

 

[John Hinkey]

You definitely have talents that I do not.

Well, I'm an engineer since God knows when (first degree in '87, last degree in '94) and have had to conceive, design, manufacture and make work tons of complicated stuff. Recently had the opportunity to have some parts made by "additive manufacturing" (as opposed to "subractive") and it's pretty darned cool.

I have another very very nice lever set Longines movement coming my way soon.

I've also gotten a few <40mm diameter wind at 3 nice movements that I will be turning into wrist watches to see how those go.

My day job and family and other pursuits keep me pretty busy.

More soon.

- J

 

[John Hinkey]

The only degree I hold, is one of great difficulty.

I've met some of the most non-smart people that had many degrees and some of the most smart people with few to no degrees.
So sometimes the degree of great difficulty is a good one to have!

- J

 

[John Hinkey]

Quick initial 3D printed wrist case for a 34mm diameter nice Longines PW movement I have.
Will use readily available straps that fit a 22mm wide strap Garmin watch (like my Fenix 5).
Hot off the presses:

still have to figure out how to actuate the setting lever for this - very limited space and my solution for this problem for the ~40mm diameter pocket watch movement above will not work. Will have to get very crafty.
Need to add the machine screws that will hold the top/bottom covers and the main case together. It's a 3 part construction.
Winding crown will be 3D printed hard rubber. Front/rear windows will be flat 1.1mm thick sapphire.

More to come.

- J

 

[WoodyR]

Quick initial 3D printed wrist case for a 34mm diameter nice Longines PW movement I have. ......

How wide did you make the case for a 34mm movement?

Do you have any experience with Rhino? I don't but I wonder if it's better than SW for shapes with lots of blended features.

Thanks for sharing! Woody

 

[John Hinkey]

How wide did you make the case for a 34mm movement?

Do you have any experience with Rhino? I don't but I wonder if it's better than SW for shapes with lots of blended features.

Thanks for sharing! Woody

This is a first cut, but the case diameter is about 47.5mm - just about the same as my Garmin Fenix 5 Sapphire GPS sports watch - which I find a nice size for my average sized wrist. In fact the digital display on my Garmin is just about exactly what you get with this movement dial diameter.
I think I can make the watch case more svelte than shown, but I want to get all the features in, get straps on, etc. and see how it looks before I make any changes to the basic design. Getting the movement securely mounted inside the case is tricky.

I did try Rhino (and owned a license for a while), but it didn't work well for me regarding how I put models together. I need really good solids for 3D printing and dedicated CAD software is the way to go for such things. I do have a rendering program that will make the resulting image very very nice.

- John

 

[John Hinkey]

Changed the dial hour markings to be closer to the actual:

 

[John Hinkey]

Changed the dial hour markings to be closer to the actual:
View attachment 748832
View attachment 748833
View attachment 748834

Any idea what font that is for the hour numbers?

 

[John Hinkey]

 

[John Hinkey]

Need a few more mechanical iterations to print this, but it's going to look something like this with a black standard 22mm Garmin rubber watch band. Using a Garmin band pin allows many different quick release watch bands to be used - some of them are very nice looking.
A quick rendering.

 

[Incroyable]

Thought some people might be interested in this Japanese watchmaker who converts orphaned pocket watches into wristwatches in a very harmonious way:

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[gmorse]

Hi Jeffrey,

Very nice work, although a shame about the phonetic translations; eg 'shampoo rub' for 'champlevé' or 'Barge Fuji' for 'verge fusee' . . . .

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Hinkey]

Thought some people might be interested in this Japanese watchmaker who converts orphaned pocket watches into wristwatches in a very harmonious way:

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Yes, there are a lot of wrist watches out there that are converts. They look great, but the trouble I have is they most times make a new dial that is not faithful to the original because they are wind at 12 movements.
My aim is to not modify the movement or dial in any way unless for a repair (or the dial is too far gone, but try to replicate the dial as closely as possible).
The feedback I've gotten from the non-horological amongst us is that the original dials have more appeal, but everyone has their own tastes.

The other issue I see is that they tend to be pin set or stem set, but no lever set ones because it's almost impossible to get a lever set to work in a traditional wrist watch case. I think I have a solution to this with my 3D printed wrist watch conversion case above, but I've not actually built it yet.
I'm not in love with my solution to the lever setting in the pocket watch cases I've made so far and will have another go at it.

 

[John Hinkey]

This Longines PW conversion looks awful to me:

Trade-In With Negotiation 1908 Longines Pocket Watch Movement Solid Silver Case | eBay

Please message us to check the condition and size. <br>.

www.ebay.com

 

[Incroyable]

Yes most pocket watch conversions are hideous and done in a very amateurish sort of way.

 

[John Hinkey]

Another wrist watch conversion rendering - this time with a feature (see white lever on the strap lug) that activates the setting lever of the movement:

 

[Dr. Jon]

I like the look but it undoes the function of the lever set which is to prevent accidental setting,

I suggest you add a small spring loaded pin the blocks the lever movement unless pressed in.

 

[John Hinkey]

I like the look but it undoes the function of the lever set which is to prevent accidental setting,

I suggest you add a small spring loaded pin the blocks the lever movement unless pressed in.

The lever is spring loaded so that it cannot be accidentally moved - meaning a spring is pushing/holding it in the position you see and you will have to hold the lever in the rotated position against the spring while adjusting the time. So it should not accidentally activate the setting lever.
I've tried to figure out how to make it work like a pin-set movements with a simple spring loaded pin, but the mechanics just aren't working out so far.
I like the idea of a pin-like configuration, but I can't find a way to implement that in some reasonable way with the room that I have.

I'll build this and see how it goes with the lever, but I will continue to work out the pin approach.

Thanks for the input!

- John

 

[Dr. Jon]

Since the case material is a plastic, you might just print in a nub which has to be pressed in to move the lever.