Orientation of Anchor Pin - Kern & Link

KurtinSA

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How should the anchor pin be positioned...straight up and down or angled like the one in the pictured clock? I have two Kern & Link clocks with plate 1667. One has the pin straight up and down, and then I have this one. Can't say as I'm having good luck with them...the straight up and down runs for 5 months, and the angled one now won't run.

More on the angled one...It did run but only for a couple of months, so I decided to go back into it. First noticed that the pin spent all if it's time over on the right side when viewed from the back. Adjusted the pallets evenly to bring the pin vertical...looks good. And the escapement looks about as good as I've seen. It seemed to run but with small over swing and about 270 degrees of total rotation...I decided to sacrifice some rotation and increase over swing by lowering the fork about 1mm. Didn't really make much difference on the over swing, and now the clock won't run at all. The fork has a paper-thickness between it and the pin. Par for the course...take a clock that will run for a couple of months and make it not work at all. :banghead:

So what would be recommended on the angle of the pin?

Kurt

KernAnchorPin.jpg
 

Ken M

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I'm curious though. How do you attribute a clock stopping after nine months to the anchor pin? There are so many things that can stop these clocks, why the anchor pin?
 

Ken M

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I'm curious though. How do you attribute a clock stopping after nine months to the anchor pin? There are so many things that can stop these clocks, why the anchor pin?
 

KurtinSA

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This particular clock with the angled pin will only run for two months at a time. I'm sure there are some dynamics/geometry issues with the pin being at an angle as well as riding deeper into the tines of the fork. I'm leaning towards straightening the pin. My other similar movement clock runs at least 5 months!!

Kurt
 
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Ken M

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When I played with these things 10-15 years ago, I bent pins. I don't think I'll do that anymore, there's got to be another way.
 

Ken M

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When I played with these things 10-15 years ago, I bent pins. I don't think I'll do that anymore, there's got to be another way.
 

Darrmann39

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This particular clock with the angled pin will only run for two months at a time. I'm sure there are some dynamics/geometry issues with the pin being at an angle as well as riding deeper into the tines of the fork. I'm leaning towards straightening the pin. My other similar movement clock runs at least 5 months!!

Kurt
I would think they are supposed to be straight. Mine all are. Is there any possibility having it bent back like that it could rub on the back of the plate when running
 

Darrmann39

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This particular clock with the angled pin will only run for two months at a time. I'm sure there are some dynamics/geometry issues with the pin being at an angle as well as riding deeper into the tines of the fork. I'm leaning towards straightening the pin. My other similar movement clock runs at least 5 months!!

Kurt
I would think if it ran for 5 months it would be more of a mainspring issue. Maybe a set mainspring or needs cleaned and oiled kind of thing.
 

Wayne A

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Strait up and down is how the pin should be as it enters the fork.. If the pin is at an angle in the fork you will get increased binding as the pin moves.
 

KurtinSA

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I would think if it ran for 5 months it would be more of a mainspring issue. Maybe a set mainspring or needs cleaned and oiled kind of thing.
Sorry for the confusion...my other clock runs for 5 months. This one with the angled pin runs only for a couple of months.

Kurt
 

Darrmann39

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Sorry for the confusion...my other clock runs for 5 months. This one with the angled pin runs only for a couple of months.

Kurt
Yea I got that I should have included what part of your post I was responding to.
Did you straighten out the pin to see if that was your problem on the other one
 

KurtinSA

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On the "5 month clock", I did not straighten anything, just did the best I could to service the movement and main spring. My level of skill appears to be getting a clock to run for 5-7 months...I've not reached the plateau where one of my clocks will run for a year.

Kurt
 

marylander

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The angled pin will make the contact point between the pin and fork larger. I would think that straight up and down pin will make the friction between pin and fork smaller, because of smaller contact point, than the angled pin and consequently, higher degree of pendulum rotation will be.
I also agree Wayne A that the angled pin will increase binding as it moves.
I always straighten the pin if it is not straight up and down.
Ming
 

KurtinSA

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That's what I'm trying to do. I was hoping to remove the pin and straighten on my lathe...also need to apply heat to the pin to minimize it breaking. I can't seem to get it to unscrew or pull out...I guess I'm at an impasse until I can get some expert help.

Kurt
 

marylander

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Kurt, the anchor pin is angled so closed to the suspension spring, it take extra force to move the fork (lower leverage). One benefit is higher rotation of pendulum, but it will make clock run weaker or last not as long with each mainspring wind up. So, it will be better to have the anchor pin straight up and down.
Ming
 

marylander

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That's what I'm trying to do. I was hoping to remove the pin and straighten on my lathe...also need to apply heat to the pin to minimize it breaking. I can't seem to get it to unscrew or pull out...I guess I'm at an impasse until I can get some expert help.

Kurt
Kurt, you can use a needle nose plier to hold the bottom of the pin closed to the anchor and bend the top pin so to make it straight up.
Ming
 
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Ken M

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Use your sensitive feelers (fingers), you should be able to feel it give a little before it breaks.
 

KurtinSA

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...followed shortly by "on no!!" or words to that effect! Even if it gives a little, I think then the anchor is compromised.

Kurt
 

marylander

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...followed shortly by "on no!!" or words to that effect! Even if it gives a little, I think then the anchor is compromised.

Kurt
Kurt, The key is using a needle nose plier to grab the bottom of the pin 3-4mm from the anchor while bending the pin. So, only the pin 3-4mm above the anchor bent. The pin will bend, not break.
Ming
 

KurtinSA

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Ming -

The bend in question is right at the base of the pin, right where you suggest grabbing it. I'm visiting a friend of mine next week and I'm taking the anchor to him. I want to go to school on what he does.

I'm vaguely aware that there are some things you just don't bend...they're brittle and they snap first. Probably some early clocks and/or French clocks. I believe even the pivots on the arbors are an area that one needs to take care of. They'll bend but how many times before you bend it back was it bent before. That's work hardening and it will break. I've not had to do that much, but I did once and the pivot broke off. I'm not equipped to do pivot repair, so I had to dive into my spares. I've been applying heat from my butane torch in order to anneal the pivot and then I can give it a bend.

Kurt
 

Phil G4SPZ

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Hello Kurt,

I also have a Kern & Link plate 1667 and the pin is bent back, just like yours. I restored mine in February 2021 and it’s still running beautifully with rotation about 300 degrees and good overswing of around 60 degrees. The fork movement is slightly offset to the right of centre, but as it ran fine I didn’t adjust the pallets.

If everything else is perfect, reduced run time has probably got to be due to mainspring lubrication, sticking or fatigue.

Have you tried unloading the mainspring completely and then winding it up just (say) two full turns? Does the clock go then?

I haven’t been playing with 400-days long enough to know for sure how long they will all run, but my first one, a Kundo miniature, ran for a week short of a full year. It didn’t actually stop, but I noticed that the amplitude had reduced so I wound it up.

Phil

52C71991-E44B-4EB9-A7A7-2D36CDFFEBD8.jpeg
 

KurtinSA

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Phil -

I haven't returned to this clock...I showed my anchor to my friend and he promptly bent it back straight using his finger! D'oh! He could tell that the pin was not a brittle steel, so as suggested here, it could be easily bent...but I was not comfortable doing that. Once I get home, I will proceed with further investigations.

As for main spring service, I do the best I can...or know how to. I have been reducing the amount of lubrication I give the main spring to avoid a hydro lock situation. I also work hard to remove all old varnish from the old oil. Beyond that, I don't know what else to do. I don't have a way of determining if the spring is fatigued. I don't think it is.

My bench test now include winding to 1/2 power and see if the movement will pick up rotation from right at pallet drop. I put the clock in beat by ensuring that the pendulum rotations from pallet drop on one side to just barely pallet drop on the other side. If the clock can build up momentum from that point, then things must be good.

But will they run 400 days...or even 360 days?? I still don't have much success in that. I don't know what it takes to make that happen...probably never will.

Kurt
 

Ken M

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The anchor pin on my Hamilton was bent back, I just straightened it. But it having pin pallets, I wonder if I should have left it. I get the parts Monday, so maybe that will be my first attack.
 

Phil G4SPZ

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Kurt, you seem to be doing all the right things, probably cleaning the mainspring with more diligence than I do!

Thinking about the pin being bent forward or back, this is yet another adjustment that I would rather not have to consider. It affects the ‘gearing’ between pin and fork, without changing the loading on the fork as happens when the fork height is altered.

It will be interesting to hear how your clock runs with the pin now upright.

Phil
 

Ken M

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Kurt, the anchor pin is angled so closed to the suspension spring, it take extra force to move the fork (lower leverage). One benefit is higher rotation of pendulum, but it will make clock run weaker or last not as long with each mainspring wind up. So, it will be better to have the anchor pin straight up and down.
Ming
So what accomplishes the same thing as bending the fork back? Lowering the fork, or raising it? I'm still confused about this.
 

Darrmann39

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So what accomplishes the same thing as bending the fork back? Lowering the fork, or raising it? I'm still confused about this.
It does nothing. I think sometimes people get a replacement fork that don't quite reach well and then bend the pin to make it reach
 

Phil G4SPZ

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It does nothing. I think sometimes people get a replacement fork that don't quite reach well and then bend the pin to make it reach
With respect, that’s wrong. The distance between the pin and the suspension spring affects the amount of total rotation of the pendulum. So, bending the pin backwards will tend to increase the rotation, and vice versa.

Lowering the fork tends to reduce the total rotation, as well as reducing the load on the fork which can cause flutter. Raising the fork reduces flutter but tends to increase rotation.

Bear in mind that all these adjustments are inter-dependent, and there is only a finite amount of impulse power available at the escape wheel. A 400-day clock will run with a range of settings of the escapement, pin and fork, but in order for it to run at its best, all adjustments need to be optimised.

Phil
 

Darrmann39

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With respect, that’s wrong. The distance between the pin and the suspension spring affects the amount of total rotation of the pendulum. So, bending the pin backwards will tend to increase the rotation, and vice versa.

Lowering the fork tends to reduce the total rotation, as well as reducing the load on the fork which can cause flutter. Raising the fork reduces flutter but tends to increase rotation.

Bear in mind that all these adjustments are inter-dependent, and there is only a finite amount of impulse power available at the escape wheel. A 400-day clock will run with a range of settings of the escapement, pin and fork, but in order for it to run at its best, all adjustments need to be optimised.

Phil
I'm not sure about that. But if it does its not the correct way to solve the problem of wanting more rotation. It is causing more contact between fork and pin adding another negative effect.
Also I could see what your saying if the whole pin moved closer but bending it doesn't do that either.
I don't think bending the pin is going to solve any rotational problems.
 

marylander

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In deed, the distance between pin and the suspension spring affect the amount of pendulum rotation. the pin closer to the suspension spring, the greater rotation will be. Of course it is not the way to use it to change the amount of rotation.
Ming
 

KurtinSA

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According to my notes, I had trouble getting the clock to run again after I adjusted the pallets...I mentioned that pin wasn't centered during operation. That's when I noticed the pin was bent forward. Now that it is straight up and down, the clock runs reasonably OK at 1/2 power with the over swing being 25 degrees or so. Yesterday, I went to full power and the clock runs better, with over swing approaching 45 degrees. So, for now, looks like things were improved. The clock was stopping every 2-4 months, so I'll have to monitor this long term to see if I made an improvement. I don't have that great of a track record, so I doubt it will run for anything close to a year. But who knows!

Kurt
 

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