Opinions (guesses) as to What Might Have Been?

[Joe Gargery]

When I dropped my long case off at Museum Quality Restorations, one of the first things my friend mentioned was that he was certain the clock was missing some upper ornamentation and if I had it put aside some place. I hadn't thought of this before, nor had I looked for any evidence of missing parts. Today he sent me this image of the top of the bonnet where he shows something definitely was fixed as he said "long, long ago".

I don't currently have a better picture of the bonnet straight on, and the background interferes a little, but it does show there is a step up of a couple inches in height on the top.

I do realize it's impossible to determine with absolute certainty but I would very much like your opinions as to what may have been affixed to the top of this bonnet judging by the general style of the case. Metal or wood? Finials, a crown, crest/fret work, a rail or...? I would very much consider having whatever it may have been, reproduced and re-installed.
No offense intended to the purists here who are the custodians of originality, but this lock not be offered for sale on the open market with the intent of representing it as original. It will remain with me for my own enjoyment until I'm placed in a "case" of my own.
Very much appreciate your learned opinions on this one.
Joe

 

[bruce linde]

it might have originally had finials (brass, i would think)... but such might have been added at some later date.

i have a similar case (and have seen many similar) with no finials

 

[new2clocks]

Are there any indications that finials or other adornments were originally in other areas of the clock other than the top? If no, then any addition to the top should be subtle and not 'over the top' (pun not intended).

FWIW, I think it looks fine as is.

Regards.

 

[Steve Neul]

I don't believe anything that small has come off. It just looks like rub marks from handling.

 

[DeanT]

Hard to tell from the photos but there doesn’t appear to be any witness marks from where the base of a finial would have marked the case. I’d want to see further evidence of previous ornament around the hole before I installed any new. Besides it looks fine as is!

 

[Joe Gargery]

I don't believe anything that small has come off. It just looks like rub marks from handling.

Steve, I believe he is pointing out the former mounting holes equally spaced on each side.

 

[Joe Gargery]

Hard to tell from the photos but there doesn’t appear to be any witness marks from where the base of a finial would have marked the case. I’d want to see further evidence of previous ornament around the hole before I installed any new. Besides it looks fine as is!

Dean, I don't believe these holes are large enough for finials but could have held something that, perhaps a finial was attached to. Agreed, it's difficult to see in the picture I posted but there are marks visible of something larger having been there.

 

[Joe Gargery]

Are there any indications that finials or other adornments were originally in other areas of the clock other than the top? If no, then any addition to the top should be subtle and not 'over the top' (pun not intended).

FWIW, I think it looks fine as is.

Regards.

n2c, Not that I've seen yet, but my eye is untrained for such evidence unless it's fairly obvious. I agree, something a little more subtle would be nice, not an overpowering crown.

 

[Joe Gargery]

it might have originally had finials (brass, i would think)... but such might have been added at some later date.

i have a similar case (and have seen many similar) with no finials

Bruce, that is a possibility. I've seen the brass finials with only a screw size hole for mounting.
The holes on top look like they are aligned with the columns beneath.

 

[Steve Neul]

Those holes don't appear to have ever been used for anything. If there was ever finials there I believe the top would have round circles there cleaner than the rest of the top.

 

[bruce linde]

those holes are too small for most of the finials i've seen... but just so you can review some options, i photoshopped a couple for you. the clock on the right is mine.

being able to look at it, i think it might look pretty good with the bird finials, because of the busier chapter ring... but it's your baby.

 

[leeinv66]

Might they be from shipping? To locate the piece within a crate?

 

[Joe Gargery]

those holes are too small for most of the finials i've seen... but just so you can review some options, i photoshopped a couple for you. the clock on the right is mine.

being able to look at it, i think it might look pretty good with the bird finials, because of the busier chapter ring... but it's your baby.

View attachment 765860

Hey, thanks for doing that Bruce. Your clock is particularly nice!
If mine did have the screw-in brass style finials, like this random one I grabbed off google images, that could explain the smaller holes, rather than the larger holes associated with wooden finials.

When looking straight on, my bonnet looks very similar to yours, minus the darker bit of scroll work yours has. Does your bonnet show any evidence of ever having had anything on the very top?
Bernhard shared a few pictures of his clock from a similar era. It is much fancier but still has the flat topped bonnet with this elaborate piece mounted on top.

 

[Schatznut]

I see witness marks not of finials, but of a structure that was attached, but it's hard to say with any certainty what it was. At any rate, whatever was there has been missing for a very long time.

 

[Steve Neul]

It's not uncommon in manufacturing to drill holes for accessories in every piece you make. Then if the consumer want's finials the pilot holes are there for proper placement. This case doesn't appear like anything has ever been screwed in there but that doesn't mean finials were never offered or couldn't still be added.

 

[Joe Gargery]

I see witness marks not of finials, but of a structure that was attached, but it's hard to say with any certainty what it was. At any rate, whatever was there has been missing for a very long time.

View attachment 765885

Yes Schatznut, that footprint is more obvious when you see the bonnet in person.

 

[bruce linde]

no marks on mine, and the top level on the example provided by bernhard looks like an add-on to me... not sure why the woods would be such different colors, and a lot can happen in 200 years...

 

[bruce linde]

Bruce, that is a possibility. I've seen the brass finials with only a screw size hole for mounting.
The holes on top look like they are aligned with the columns beneath.

btw... i was told/taught that the earlier finials did not screw in, but had simple posts that press-fit into holes... old = post, newer = threaded. those holes still look smaller than expected for any of the finials i've come across...

 

[Joe Gargery]

Thanks Bruce, I thought they all had the screw in threads until I searched this morning for vintage finials and it turns out many were wooden with gilded paint and yes, they used the larger holes like any other wooden finial.
It's a new learning process for me.

 

[JayKosta]

My guess, based on the 'ghost outline' of a box shaped object setting on the top. is that the 2 holes are for locating a flat piece of wood that contained the 'adornment' for the top. It probably was not securely fastened (for easy removal when moving / servicing), hence just the 2 'locator' holes and pins.

 

[bruce linde]

I see witness marks not of finials, but of a structure that was attached, but it's hard to say with any certainty what it was. At any rate, whatever was there has been missing for a very long time.

View attachment 765885

i don't see the same witness marks... here's what i see (which looks more like something was sitting on top for a long time, rather than part of the case):

 

[Joe Gargery]

There appears to have been something affixed here as well and this is dead center of the top.

 

[klokwiz]

Joe, it certainly appears there may have been a topper of some sort on this hood. If your restorer can assist in estimating what it may have been, look for other examples of makers work and yo ma get lucky and find one similar. Otherwise it looks very fine as is, I would certainly NOT put just any old thing up there to fill a space. Joe

 

[Joe Gargery]

You are absolutely right Joe. I'd really like to replace the missing piece with something appropriate but I'll be careful not to go too elaborate and make the clock look gaudy. I have been searching many images of clocks from this era just to get different ideas of what was used. Most tend to be more towards the subtle.
Joe

 

[ridaco]

When I dropped my long case off at Museum Quality Restorations, one of the first things my friend mentioned was that he was certain the clock was missing some upper ornamentation and if I had it put aside some place. I hadn't thought of this before, nor had I looked for any evidence of missing parts. Today he sent me this image of the top of the bonnet where he shows something definitely was fixed as he said "long, long ago".

View attachment 765816

I don't currently have a better picture of the bonnet straight on, and the background interferes a little, but it does show there is a step up of a couple inches in height on the top.

View attachment 765817 View attachment 765820

I do realize it's impossible to determine with absolute certainty but I would very much like your opinions as to what may have been affixed to the top of this bonnet judging by the general style of the case. Metal or wood? Finials, a crown, crest/fret work, a rail or...? I would very much consider having whatever it may have been, reproduced and re-installed.
No offense intended to the purists here who are the custodians of originality, but this lock not be offered for sale on the open market with the intent of representing it as original Biker Epic. It will remain with me for my own enjoyment until I'm placed in a "case" of my own.
Very much appreciate your learned opinions on this one.
Joe

While it's challenging to determine with absolute certainty what may have been affixed to the top, I can offer some general suggestions based on the style of the case.
Given the general style of the case, it's possible that there may have been some form of ornamentation or decorative element affixed to the top. These could include finials, a crown, crest/fret work, or a rail. The materials used could vary, such as metal or wood, depending on the overall design of the clock case.
If you are considering having the missing ornamentation reproduced and re-installed, it would be advisable to consult with a professional clock restorer or a skilled artisan who specializes in clock case restoration. They would be able to provide more detailed insights and guidance based on the specific style and era of your clock.
It's important to note that any restoration work should be done with care and respect for the original integrity of the clock. While some collectors and enthusiasts prioritize maintaining originality, others may choose to restore missing elements to enhance the aesthetics and completeness of the piece. Ultimately, the decision rests with you as the owner and custodian of the clock.
Remember to work with reputable professionals who have experience in clock restoration to ensure the best outcome for your clock and your personal enjoyment.

 

[Schatznut]

By the way, Joe - that's a really handsome old clock!

 

[Joe Gargery]

Well, I have the clock back now and gave the top of the bonnet a thorough cleaning so I could better inspect. It shows something was affixed to the front area only. There are three distinct mounting points. I even used a good magnifier on the rest of the area looking for any witness marks and there are none. The two holes had to have been for mounting as they are equidistant from both sides of the top.

 

[Steve Neul]

Yes, that picture tells a different story. There is also marks on the trim on the front on each end. It may be it had a pediment on it which had pins inserted where the holes were. Since the pediment was fragile the pediment may have been made removable for transport. Maybe something of this nature.

 

[Joe Gargery]

Yes Steve, I also saw the mark on the front trim piece but didn't know what to make of it. It is quite obvious on the LHS there was something fixed but I cannot see clear evidence of the same on the RHS.

However, you raise an interesting point. I had assumed that whatever was on top had sat on the upper portion where the two nail holes are. But re-examining it now, after your input, it seems very likely that whatever was there could very well have been sitting on the front trim edge and the upper flat area was only used for attachment purposes.
More to ruminate on.
Thank you.
Joe

 

[Steve Neul]

Yes Steve, I also saw the mark on the front trim piece but didn't know what to make of it. It is quite obvious on the LHS there was something fixed but I cannot see clear evidence of the same on the RHS.

View attachment 766302 View attachment 766303

However, you raise an interesting point. I had assumed that whatever was on top had sat on the upper portion where the two nail holes are. But re-examining it now, after your input, it seems very likely that whatever was there could very well have been sitting on the front trim edge and the upper flat area was only used for attachment purposes.
More to ruminate on.
Thank you.
Joe

It may also be what ever was mounted on the top someone glued on and the spots you see on the upper top are marks from glue blocks. It may have had blocks cut on a 45 degree angle bracing what is missing.

I assume you know who the maker of the clock is. You might look to see what is commonplace for them to make.

 

[Joe Gargery]

Yes Steve, the maker is John Long of London. I have scoured the internet since I purchased this clock looking for others made by him (or his son) and I've only been able to find one other. This one is the same maker and, while it shares some similarities to mine, it is much fancier. This one was listed for sale 13 years ago at Christie's, where it looks like it sold for GBP 5,750, in non-working condition.

A WILLIAM AND MARY WALNUT AND ARABESQUE MARQUETRY INLAID STRIKING LONGCASE CLOCK OF MONTH DURATION
JOHN LONG, LONDON. CIRCA 1690
Price realised GBP 5,750
Estimate
GBP 2,000 – GBP 3,000
Closed: 7 Dec 2010

(apologies for picture quality, I could not do a screen capture of their webfile)

A WILLIAM AND MARY WALNUT AND ARABESQUE MARQUETRY INLAID STRIKING LONGCASE CLOCK OF MONTH DURATION
JOHN LONG, LONDON. CIRCA 1690
The 12 in. wide brass dial with engraved border to engraved chapter ring with sword hilt half hour markers, subsidiary seconds and engraved date square to matted centre, hands lacking, the movement with five ringed and latched pillars, anchor escapement and outside countwheel strike on bell (countwheel lacking), associated case
91 in. (231 cm.) high

 

[Steve Neul]

Yes Steve, the maker is John Long of London. I have scoured the internet since I purchased this clock looking for others made by him (or his son) and I've only been able to find one other. This one is the same maker and, while it shares some similarities to mine, it is much fancier. This one was listed for sale 13 years ago at Christie's, where it looks like it sold for GBP 5,750, in non-working condition.

A WILLIAM AND MARY WALNUT AND ARABESQUE MARQUETRY INLAID STRIKING LONGCASE CLOCK OF MONTH DURATION
JOHN LONG, LONDON. CIRCA 1690
Price realised GBP 5,750
Estimate
GBP 2,000 – GBP 3,000
Closed: 7 Dec 2010

(apologies for picture quality, I could not do a screen capture of their webfile)

View attachment 766379

A WILLIAM AND MARY WALNUT AND ARABESQUE MARQUETRY INLAID STRIKING LONGCASE CLOCK OF MONTH DURATION
JOHN LONG, LONDON. CIRCA 1690
The 12 in. wide brass dial with engraved border to engraved chapter ring with sword hilt half hour markers, subsidiary seconds and engraved date square to matted centre, hands lacking, the movement with five ringed and latched pillars, anchor escapement and outside countwheel strike on bell (countwheel lacking), associated case
91 in. (231 cm.) high

I found the website. I won't agree to their cookies either. The design for the top of that case could certainly fit with your clock. The marks on the top of your case leaves the only question. You could always make a top like that and make it removable using pins to keep it from falling off. If someday you discover the design was wrong it wouldn't be difficult to change.

 

[Joe Gargery]

Good point.