Omega 661 (teeny-weeny) issues

[Codozalator]

Hi Everyone.

I have a cute little Omega Automatic DeVille lady's watch I picked up as needing repair.

From what I gather, this is the smallest automatic produced by a major watch maker.

The mainspring barrel is 6.0 mm in diameter. The smallest one I have encountered.

I put a new mainspring in it.

Anyway, I serviced it and all the parts look in order, and it kicked off and began running.

The thing is, the balance would only run when I lifted the balance cock off the plate a small amount, but it ran all night and even kept time during that period.

BUT...If I tightened it down with the screw, it would stop. I am figuring the pivot is seating too deep and stalling the balance. I read where someone suggested a shim, but that seems like more of a Band-Aid than a fix.

Well, anyway, I cleaned and oiled the top and bottom balance jewels, as we're supposed to do as part of a service, and upon putting them back in...now it won't run at all.

I am thinking I am having an issue with the top and bottom pivots/jewels somewhere. I could have them placed back in a micron off kilter such that the pivot comes in contact incorrectly and stalls out. Do you think that could be the case?., See what I'm trying to say?.

Everything else look great and works fine. That's the only thing I can think that it may be. But, that is why I am asking for input from you all.

If needed, I can take some photos and post them later on. As I said, it was running until I cleaned & oiled the balance jewels, now it won't run at all, so that's what makes me think therein lies my issue.

 

[Chris Radek]

Looks like it's an incabloc movement? Are the top and bottom settings different? Sometimes they are. Did you put a cap jewel in upside-down?

 

[Codozalator]

Yes, Chris, it is an incabloc movement. Pretty cool little movement. I checked the upside down jewel, but I am going to check again. I may have. I looked at the jewel under magnification and, heck, it looks flat and is difficult to tell which side is which. Aren't they supposed to be slightly domed?. I am going to take your suggestion and check again.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Codozalator,

As I said, it was running until I cleaned & oiled the balance jewels, now it won't run at all

What did you oil it with? Movements as small as this need a thin oil on the balance. You're right, cap jewels are normally plano-convex with the flat side towards the pivot.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Jmarks]

Hi Everyone.

I have a cute little Omega Automatic DeVille lady's watch I picked up as needing repair.

From what I gather, this is the smallest automatic produced by a major watch maker.

The mainspring barrel is 6.0 mm in diameter. The smallest one I have encountered.

I put a new mainspring in it.

Anyway, I serviced it and all the parts look in order, and it kicked off and began running.

The thing is, the balance would only run when I lifted the balance cock off the plate a small amount, but it ran all night and even kept time during that period.

BUT...If I tightened it down with the screw, it would stop. I am figuring the pivot is seating too deep and stalling the balance. I read where someone suggested a shim, but that seems like more of a Band-Aid than a fix.

Well, anyway, I cleaned and oiled the top and bottom balance jewels, as we're supposed to do as part of a service, and upon putting them back in...now it won't run at all.

I am thinking I am having an issue with the top and bottom pivots/jewels somewhere. I could have them placed back in a micron off kilter such that the pivot comes in contact incorrectly and stalls out. Do you think that could be the case?., See what I'm trying to say?.

Everything else look great and works fine. That's the only thing I can think that it may be. But, that is why I am asking for input from you all.

If needed, I can take some photos and post them later on. As I said, it was running until I cleaned & oiled the balance jewels, now it won't run at all, so that's what makes me think therein lies my issue.

Check the balance jewels top and bottom to be sure they are seated in the plate and bridge to the proper depth. If it took a hit or someone replaced a jewel it could be too tight. Check endshake on the balance. Also make sure the roller is seated all the way.

 

[roughbarked]

A shim is all wrong in an Omega, yes.

 

[Skutt50]

Sometimes the upper and lower endstones are of different thickness. Mixing them up can cause some unwanted begavior.

 

[Codozalator]

Hi Codozalator,


What did you oil it with? Movements as small as this need a thin oil on the balance. You're right, cap jewels are normally plano-convex with the flat side towards the pivot.

Regards,

Graham

I used WD-40...what else?!. Sorry.

No, I cleaned them using hairspring cleaner I get from Esslinger and oiled them with a fly speck of 9010. They are so, so, so TINY. Wow!. Messing with them scares me to death, but I do what I gotta do. They hop away like tiddly winks and are so dang tiny. I think Omega was trying to show-off and see how small they could make an automatic movement.
But, I am going to check the above mentioned suggestions. Thank you all so much for your time and input. I will report back with any progress.

 

[Codozalator]

Thanks J, I will do that.

Check the balance jewels top and bottom to be sure they are seated in the plate and bridge to the proper depth. If it took a hit or someone replaced a jewel it could be too tight. Check endshake on the balance. Also make sure the roller is seated all the way.

Admittedly, I have done little in the arena of seating jewels correctly and fixing endshake. By little, I mean I have not done it at all. BUT... I have one of those Chinese-made Horia tools and a staking set and am willing to dive in. I have put in balance staffs though with my staking tool. But I have not messed with jewel seating and the like.
I do believe this is the problem with the watch. The endshake may be the issue. Even before it stopped working altogether, I had to leave the balance cock screw out and lift the balance cock off of the plate before the wheel would take off. This was before I had even bothered the top and bottom jewels at all.

EDIT: As you can see from the video around the 2:30 mark, the bottom balance jewel appears to be too low and projecting out of the plate. It's not flush with the plate. It would make sense as to why the balance wheel needed to be held up to run. How can I tell what proper clearance and depth is?. I'll nose around YT for some videos on the issue. I'm going to have to disassemble and reclean the movement anyway and just start from scratch.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Codozalator,

The endshake may be the issue. Even before it stopped working altogether, I had to leave the balance cock screw out and lift the balance cock off of the plate before the wheel would take off. This was before I had even bothered the top and bottom jewels at all.

This should be the first question we ask ourselves with any fault: 'did it work properly or at all before I began to work on it?'

Regards,

Graham

 

[Codozalator]

It didn't work at all before I serviced it. I cleaned and serviced it and it worked much better and the balance wheel kicked off...but before I oiled the balance jewels. After I oiled the jewels is when it quit running altogether. That's why I think it is in that area. That, and it only ran when the balance was lifted off the plate a hair.
I think there is an issue with the endshake. But checking endshake and whether or not the jewels are not seated properly and by how much is something I am not sure how to go about doing. I have a Horia tool, so I could just start playing around by trial-and-error by pressing the jewels a hundredth of an mm and see if the balance takes off at some point.

 

[Chris Radek]

Are you experienced with servicing incablocs? They are finicky. I can imagine that a little oil on the staff's shock shoulder could stop a balance this small. The oil should be only between the jewel pair on both ends. Any magnetism could stop it too. Like any balance, it should have a tiny bit of end shake when it's all assembled.

 

[MrRoundel]

You think the jewels on those are clamoring to get into what Kalle Slaap/Chronoglide calls joining the Swiss space program, wait until you launch an Inca spring. Even if you are fortunate enough to find it, they aren't designed to be put back in place without backing the entire setting out a bit. I've done it, but it's a royal PITA. Make sure you back up the spring at the hinge end with a piece of sharp pegwood or facsimile. I have lost jewels as well, but that was because there was a gap in my cleaning basket that sent the jewel to the Swiss time travel program.

A couple of things to try, if you haven't, take a ball of Rodico and stick it on the end of a piece of sharp pegwood and use it to pick up the jewels. Either that or get one of the special sticky tools made for just that. You still have to maneuver the little devils, but at least a ping-launch is less likely. And, believe it or not, brass tweezers handle the jewels much better than carbon steel, as they are softer and get a little traction at the jewel edge. That's all I got. Good luck.

 

[Skutt50]

Make sure you back up the spring at the hinge end with a piece of sharp pegwood or facsimile.

I put a small piece of Rodico over the hinge. That way it won't flip all the way back to unhinge.
It takes a few seconds each time but rather that than facing the work of replacing a spring that comes loose.

It works great and I haven't had any spring come loose since.

 

[Nickelsilver]

Hard to really tell in the vid but the hairspring looks quite out of true in the round, which if it is, it's likely out of true in the flat as well. That can stop it easily, and it can respond to raising the cock slightly by letting it tick (but not properly).

With Incablocs, it's not difficult, especially with manual cleaning methods, for some foreign matter to get in the tube of the hole jewel bushing (Incabloc terminology). This can be hard to detect without a microscope, and even then sometimes it's hard. That would be a stopper. Using too-thick oil or having some in the tube of the bushing or the block could cause poor amplitude for sure or as Chris mentioned in such a tiny piece stop it.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Nickelsilver,

Using too-thick oil or having some in the tube of the bushing or the block could cause poor amplitude for sure

He's said that he used 9010, but if it's in the wrong place . . .

Regards,

Graham

 

[Daniel Reuben]

I've worked on a AS 1017 (slightly smaller in width but a little taller in height than the Omega 661) and know how difficult it is to inspect the balance, hairspring, etc. I never oil the jewels on these, instead I will oil the tips of the staff (lightly) and make sure I don't hit the conical part. I wonder if you got oil on the face of the jewel and surface tension is holding the staff's motion. I would not move, change or reset the position of the jewels. In this very, very light movement I would assume factory dimenions are preserved. My next step is (and was) to reclean the balance, jewels, demagnetize, and retry dry. Also make sure it is really running with decent motion in all positions dry before re-oiling. I like the previous discussion of making sure the flat side of the cap jewel is "inside". One way to verify is to hold with tweezers and see the flash of light hitting the whole surface uniformly (like black steel polish can do on steel parts). Then of course you just have to flip over and install. Easy!

 

[Codozalator]

Wow!. Thanks everyone for all the advice and suggestions. I will take all of them into account as I try getting this little gal (it's a ladies watch) running again.

Are you experienced with servicing incablocs? They are finicky. I can imagine that a little oil on the staff's shock shoulder could stop a balance this small. The oil should be only between the jewel pair on both ends. Any magnetism could stop it too. Like any balance, it should have a tiny bit of end shake when it's all assembled.
Yes, but it is possible oil got on the pivot shoulder. I am going to clean everything and see how it goes.
I checked magnetism and it is OK on that front so far.
My big deal is wanting to get better at this endshake thing. Suppose a bottom jewel was too deep or too shallow and was causing the balance to not run correctly. Assuming one has the tools, how does one even go about setting the jewel to the correct depth, esp. when they have to be to the nearest hundredth of a mm?. But first things first.

You think the jewels on those are clamoring to get into what Kalle Slaap/Chronoglide calls joining the Swiss space program, wait until you launch an Inca spring. Even if you are fortunate enough to find it, they aren't designed to be put back in place without backing the entire setting out a bit. I've done it, but it's a royal PITA. Make sure you back up the spring at the hinge end with a piece of sharp pegwood or facsimile. I have lost jewels as well, but that was because there was a gap in my cleaning basket that sent the jewel to the Swiss time travel program.

A couple of things to try, if you haven't, take a ball of Rodico and stick it on the end of a piece of sharp pegwood and use it to pick up the jewels. Either that or get one of the special sticky tools made for just that. You still have to maneuver the little devils, but at least a ping-launch is less likely. And, believe it or not, brass tweezers handle the jewels much better than carbon steel, as they are softer and get a little traction at the jewel edge. That's all I got. Good luck.

Yes, I am a fan of Chronoglide too.
Wow!. I can't imagine trying to reinstall an Incabloc gate...whew!.
Yes, Rodico on a stick is how I take them out of the setting. Thanks for the advice on the brass tweezers. I had not thought of that

I put a small piece of Rodico over the hinge. That way it won't flip all the way back to unhinge.
It takes a few seconds each time but rather that than facing the work of replacing a spring that comes loose.

It works great and I haven't had any spring come loose since.

Clever. Thanks for the tip.

Hard to really tell in the vid but the hairspring looks quite out of true in the round, which if it is, it's likely out of true in the flat as well. That can stop it easily, and it can respond to raising the cock slightly by letting it tick (but not properly).

With Incablocs, it's not difficult, especially with manual cleaning methods, for some foreign matter to get in the tube of the hole jewel bushing (Incabloc terminology). This can be hard to detect without a microscope, and even then sometimes it's hard. That would be a stopper. Using too-thick oil or having some in the tube of the bushing or the block could cause poor amplitude for sure or as Chris mentioned in such a tiny piece stop it.

You know, I thought something looked wonky, but didn't focus on it a lot because I was focused on the jewels. Thanks. Will take under advisement.

I've worked on a AS 1017 (slightly smaller in width but a little taller in height than the Omega 661) and know how difficult it is to inspect the balance, hairspring, etc. I never oil the jewels on these, instead I will oil the tips of the staff (lightly) and make sure I don't hit the conical part. I wonder if you got oil on the face of the jewel and surface tension is holding the staff's motion. I would not move, change or reset the position of the jewels. In this very, very light movement I would assume factory dimenions are preserved. My next step is (and was) to reclean the balance, jewels, demagnetize, and retry dry. Also make sure it is really running with decent motion in all positions dry before re-oiling. I like the previous discussion of making sure the flat side of the cap jewel is "inside". One way to verify is to hold with tweezers and see the flash of light hitting the whole surface uniformly (like black steel polish can do on steel parts). Then of course you just have to flip over and install. Easy!

An AS1017?. What watches were they in?. I actually cut my teeth on these teeny ladies' watches. They say a new watchmaker should start on pocket watches because they're big, but I started on old ladies watches because they were plentiful and a dime a dozen. One uses what is at hand and these old vintage ladies watches were lying all over, so I began practicing on them (I remember being so happy the first time I got one running...and actually keeping time. A 1952 ladie's Bulova).
Regarding leaving the balance jewels alone...I have often thought the same thing, but I have always been told you have to clean and oil the balance jewels or you're a lame watchmaker and a no-good SOB. Frankly, unless the watch is a mess, I would just as soon leave them be. BUT...who am I, a Dogface Nobody, to question this instruction?. This watch was actually running up until I bothered the balance jewels. It ran all night and kept time during that duration. Granted, I had to lift the balance up a smidgeon and that had to be remedied, but at least it was running.

So, I am going to reclean everything as suggested. I am pretty sure I have the jewels in dome up now. I have gotten so I can now tell from the looks of them which side is which, plus, I put them under the microscope to make sure.

Thanks Everyone for all of the help and advice. I am going to put it into practice and will let you know how it goes.

 

[Daniel Reuben]

The AS 1017 was used by many, in my case a Bulova 4AR, the smallest production watch of the 1940s.
I agree in a way, you could buy a half dozen clunker movements, in some cases, and freely lose or damage half the parts and still make out ok....just be weary of some rare makes. Figuring out what interchanges is helpful sometimes.
At this scale the laws of physics changes *laugh* but with some seriousness things like oil viscosity or surface tension can matter. Another example, BTW even picking up a balance complete by the bridge and letting it dangle can be dangerous to the last coil. I almost always either place the balance complete in place, add the cock and rotate the stud over and under and into the mounting or if I can't then I'll mount it upside down on the cock and then with a tweezers grab the cock tight but also grab the balance loosely (all together) and flip over and into place. Hard to describe but I really don't like to let the balance hang.
Anyhow, if it was working before probably just recleaning and resetting can work here....