Old Herschede syncing problem

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by jme1013, Apr 15, 2017.

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  1. jme1013

    jme1013 Registered User

    Nov 22, 2015
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    I [video]https://youtu.be/F1tl_qakUHA[/video]

    This is a video of an old Herschede 5 tube that I looked at today. It chimes at 15, 30, and 45, but only does the hour on the hour. Where I'm confused is, the chime and strike are on the same tumbler, but it locks up after it does the hour. Consequently, when it goes to do 1/4 after, the tumbler is in a different position after each hour. If I manually sync it and (just for example sake) it strikes one and stays in sync for 1/4 after, the next go around when it strikes two the tumbler has now advanced further to play the second strike so the 1/4 after melody is now out of sync. I realize the melody is not synchronized in the video I just shot it quickly so I could study the mechanics. Has anyone toyed with this one before? I would expect the tumbler to shift and rotate the equivalent of 12 strikes, play the actual hour and the remainder of 12 shifts out of play every time in order to keep Westminster in sync. The way it functions now it syncs itself every 3 hours.
     
  2. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
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    These clocks have a peculiar auto sync system, involving an odd shaped lever that is activated by a pin on the chime drum.
    Do you have Steven Conover book on these clocks. If not it would be well worth the price. These clocks were well made but most are in need of some major repair work or overhaul.
    Willie X
     
  3. jme1013

    jme1013 Registered User

    Nov 22, 2015
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    I do not, but I will look it up. Thanks. As I worked with it today I couldn't help but feel like it was missing something, but nothing obvious is out of place. Thanks for the input.
     
  4. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    If it is the clock I think it is, the drum shifts to play the strike.
    It has a cam to shift on the end of the chime drum. These are
    notoriously had to setup and they also have wear failures that
    require special machining to fix.
    How about some pictures of the movement.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  5. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    I just looked at the vid. The book I mentioned won't help you much with that one. I think about all Steven C. said about that one amounted to a warning ...
    Willie X
     
  6. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

    Apr 15, 2005
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    #6 RJSoftware, Apr 16, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
    Hello Jme.

    The thing is the music barrel keeps turning during the strike process. I believe you should examine the lever action. You will want to see how when the chime is finished that the lever is activated on the strike.

    What it appears is that the hour strike is canceling the chime/west minster. It acts like it's lifting the chime hammers up during strike process.

    I have a German Bim bam that does that. Strange arrangement with two snails. One snail does the bim bam the other does the hour count and at first I thought (when trying to get it running) that it would strike out the hour as bim bam. But it does this weird thing where it lifts one of the hammer rods up out of the way. Then the hour is struck on just one gong wire.

    It's kind of neat because it differentiates between each 1/4 and the hour. So there is no mistake of 1 pm/am or 15 after. It has a separate lever and cam for that whole process. At first I thought maybe it was a 1/2 hr. strike. Didn't make sense till I realized it's only job was to lift the hammer out of the way. Not drop it and make a strike noise.

    I'm pretty sure this movement is not the shifting barrel with the locking pin. I have worked on one of those.

    My guess is that the chime cam is not lifting a lever high enough so the lever it effects does not stop the strike from proceeding. Probably dependent of a missing pin or lever that just misses a pin of pinned wheel of strike.

    Look for a missing pin that is suppose to be on side of strike just before the fly (thing that spins catches air). The chime is to hand over control to the strike after it is done. This usually involves dropping a lever out of the way of a pin.

    RJ
     
  7. jme1013

    jme1013 Registered User

    Nov 22, 2015
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    Willie X, There's a video at the beginning of the original post.
     
  8. jme1013

    jme1013 Registered User

    Nov 22, 2015
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    I've had a few different Herschedes in the shop, but never one like this. I failed to mention in the original post that it only has 2 weights. I'll be studying this one some more. Unfortunately, this was a house call and the customer didn't want it to leave the house. So I'll be studying the video. On the bright side, I was able to get it running for him and he had the chime tubes hanging backwards and thought that sounded fine. When I corrected that he was thrilled that he recognized the melody, even though it gets out of sync.
     
  9. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    You should do a search back through the MB. There are
    several post on these two weight movements. When the
    cam setup at the end wears out, they just don't work right.
    I've never touched one but I can see they'd be difficult.
    I doubt you could set it right while are the customers house.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  10. tickntock1

    tickntock1 Registered User
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    Take a look at the article in the bulletin, Vol. 38, issue #304, page 634. There is an in depth discussion of this type of herschede movement. At the end of the chime sequence for the full hour, the pin barrel moves slightly so that only the hour striking pins are engaged - the chime pins having been moved slightly, are idle. Upon the completion of the hour strike, the chime barrel again shifts slightly, all pins are inactive and the pin barrel continues to run until the end of a 12 hour strike and then stops. At about 10 minutes after the hour the entire pin barrel shifts back to the original starting position and is reset so it can start the correct sequence of 1/4, 1/2, etc.
    jim
     
  11. jme1013

    jme1013 Registered User

    Nov 22, 2015
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    Jim, that's exactly what I was expecting to happen. Everything that you described happens, except it locks up after the strike. It doesn't shift the 2nd time and never completes the remainder of the 12 "silent" strikes. Thanks for the direction to the resource.
     
  12. marylander

    marylander Registered User

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    Hi, JME,
    I have a five tube Herschede clock. After I take the movement apart for cleaning, I did not tight the chime drum screw correctly. So the drum slip each time it chimes. I am afraid that you have the same problem. So double check your drum set screw tightness. Please follow the link below to my post in the past.
    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?128144-Is-1942-Herschede-hall-clock-with-5-chime-tubes-a-good-clock-to-have
    Hope it will help you.
    Ming
     
  13. jme1013

    jme1013 Registered User

    Nov 22, 2015
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    This is a different issue. The barrel is good and tight, no slipping. It locks up after it strikes the hour. It should strike the hour and then the barrel should shift and continue to rotate the equivalent of 12 strikes every hour in order to keep the chime in sequence.
     
  14. tickntock1

    tickntock1 Registered User
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    Have you tried checking the spring on the side of the movement which causes the pin barrel to move the required shifts in position is tightly screwed down and/or that there is enough tension exerted by spring to move the barrel?
     
  15. jme1013

    jme1013 Registered User

    Nov 22, 2015
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    Unfortunately, this was a house call where I didn't have the option to bring it back to the shop. I took the video so I could analyze it some more. I got it up and running, just left with the chime that would not stay in sync. Apparently, this isn't a terribly common movement. We've had a few in our shop and done several on the road and this is the first time we've ran across this movement.
     
  16. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Oct 19, 2005
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    It is set up wrong as far as the drum position. On the first quarter it should sound four descending tones and stop. I believe it may intentionally not play the Westminster melody on the hour. I've run into a couple of more modern clocks that skip that part of the tune. We could verify that with another hour of melodies on the video.
     
  17. jme1013

    jme1013 Registered User

    Nov 22, 2015
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    No, the position of the drum is fine. It's out of sequence in the video because it will not stay in sequence due to it locking up after the strike. I took that video just so I could watch the mechanism more later. Trust me, I had it in sequence several times in the 2 1/2 hours I was playing with it.
     
  18. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    OK. So here's what I'm hearing: At the quarter hour it starts with the last half of the full Westminster tune. At the 1/2 hour it completes the chime, and should play the four descending notes next, but it doesn't. Instead, it repeats the 1/4 hour notes that it played at the 1/4, and then plays the descending notes of the normal 1/4 hour. I don't have an explanation, unless it's not designed as a typical Westminster ... but I still don't believe it's designed to play at the hour, but just strikes. My question is whether it does the exact same thing when you turn the hand another hour's worth of chimes?
     
  19. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    These are suppose to play all 4 quarters.
    These are notoriously hard to setup and many have been discarded
    over the years. This is why they are rare now.
    The shifting cam and follower are known to be a significant trouble
    spot.
    Since I've never seen one in person I can only refer one to older post.
    You might do a search for Herschede two weight and 9 or 5 tube movements.
    There are a number of articles about these movement.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  20. jme1013

    jme1013 Registered User

    Nov 22, 2015
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    Yes and No. It plays 4, 8, and 12 notes on the correct quarters every time, but they are different notes every hour. Reason being, the barrel rotates a different amount each hour due to the strike locking up after it finishes the current hour. Therefore, it's never in the same position when it comes back to 1/4 after. It needs to be rotating the equivalent of 12 strikes every hour, however many for the actual hour and the remainder of 12 silently.
    I'm pretty sure it's not supposed to play all 4 quarters. If you watch the wheel that triggers the barrel shift (below and slightly to the left of the hand shaft) it moves in 4 quarter increments, at the top of the hour the pin on that wheel forces the lever (that runs to the top left corner) to shift the drum. In hindsight, I wish I had videoed at least 2 hours worth of trips. If it's supposed to be playing the 4th qtr. also, two things need to be happening...1st) the pin on the hand shaft that trips the 4th qtr. needs to trip that while not allowing the pin that trips the lever to shift the pin barrel. 2nd) the pin that shifts the lever for the pin barrel needs to be engaged after the 4th qtr. plays. Both of these things are driven off of the hand shaft. This is a movement that can't do both.
    I could be wrong and I'm wishing I had taken better pictures and videos at this point. I really appreciate all the input from everyone.
     
  21. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
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    Colonial Mfg. had a two weight 3/4 Westminster chime hall clock movement, sourced from Winterhalder & Hofmeier. They would play on the 3 quarter hours but at the top of hour the drum shifts and only strikes the hour. I do not think they were set up to keep the quarter hour chimes in sync. They were basically meant as bargain-bin movements for those who did not want to spend more money on a full three train 4/4 chime clock, which would have cost more at the time.
    I am thinking this is what you have, or a short-lived Herschede version of the same movement.

    In regards to the lever locking up, see what it does when it's supposed to shift back before the first quarter hour.

    The actual two weight Herschedes look more like this:
    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?87704-herschede-2-weight-7-tube
     
  22. marylander

    marylander Registered User

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    Jme, Can you communicate with your customer to see if this clock has been acting like these since day one? You can find out a lot of information by talking and discussing with your customer. My two cents.
    Ming
     
  23. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    That does narrow it down to the strike function somehow locking up the chime. I didn't see any movement of the chime barrel, so not sure how the movement switches over to strike.
     
  24. jme1013

    jme1013 Registered User

    Nov 22, 2015
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    You didn't see the movement of the barrel due to my shaky video. Watch the left end of the barrel, as I move the minute hand to the top of the hour you'll see the gap between the barrel and the frame open up. It shifts back as the minute hand advances toward 1/4 after.
     
  25. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I just looked at the video ( shame on me for not looking sooner ).
    This is not the same 2 height movement that I've seen before
    and is NOT the same as those posted before.
    The ones I was thinking of did play the chimes at the 4 quarters.
    I'm not sure if this one does. It doesn't have anything like
    the same shift mechanism that the others have.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  26. jme1013

    jme1013 Registered User

    Nov 22, 2015
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    We've concluded that this one does not do the 4th qtr. there isn't a way for it to shift the barrrel to the strike position after it would play the 4th qtr., since they are actuated by the same action. It can only do one of the two, which obviously would be to strike the hour. I'm just surprised that I can find no literature on this movement.
     
  27. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    The other movement had a complicated shift cam at the left end
    of chime barrel. I suspect so many complained about this one they
    made the change.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  28. jme1013

    jme1013 Registered User

    Nov 22, 2015
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    I may make another trip to the customers house on my own time to get some good pictures from every side, just to add to this thread for future reference for all.
     
  29. jme1013

    jme1013 Registered User

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  30. jme1013

    jme1013 Registered User

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    Made another trip to the customers house to drop off a mantle clock and took some additional pictures.
     
  31. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
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    A very nice looking clock. There appears to be a patent number below the crown emblem but no 'Herschede' or the more commonly found markings.
     
  32. jme1013

    jme1013 Registered User

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    The same crown emblem and Herschede is on all the chime tubes.
     
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