Oiling clocks

[ibm clock]

How often should a mechanical clock be oiled and springs greased? What and where should it be oiled/greased and what should I use.

I have an Ingram mantel clock that I had just about all the busings replaced about 6 years ago and want to keep it running for my entire lifetime. I haven't run it in a couple years so I want to oil it before I start using it reqularly.

 

[ibm clock]

How often should a mechanical clock be oiled and springs greased? What and where should it be oiled/greased and what should I use.

I have an Ingram mantel clock that I had just about all the busings replaced about 6 years ago and want to keep it running for my entire lifetime. I haven't run it in a couple years so I want to oil it before I start using it reqularly.

 

[stewart]

Hello ibm clcok

I'm going to tell you my thoughts about clock lubrication from the standpoint of a mechanical engineer who has studied lubricating principles for machinery and mechanisms of all types (note: clocks were never included in the topic of study). I dislike typing so this will be in a somewhat telegraph style prose.

Quick history. First oils were animal fats. Go rancid, dry out, high acid and reactive. They had a short life, became viscous and frequent oiling was required. I think at about civil war (again "I think") we went slowly to mineral type oil. Much better, lower acid and lower evaporation. The old wives tails and old lube habits stuck making frequent lube the norm.

The clock presents many challenges to a lubricant. It has all the hazards of a well designed golf course. Slow revolving shafts with high forces. Oscillating shafts that never make a revolution (no liquid lube will ever work here as fluid film breaks down as pivot velocity goes to zero during reversal of direction (technically hydrodynamic lube goes to mixed film state then to boundary or high friction and wear).

You want longevity of the mechanism as is my primary goal. Good. The clock pivot is an open unprotected journal bearing. Liquids run out and for the short while they are there they collect abrasive dust to make a lapping slurry. Greases would be perfect but they are too viscous. They could stay in place and shield the journal from dust.

The clock movement screams for solid type lubes. Some of the best lubes, molybdenum di sulfide (condemned because it stains brass) or graphite (condemned because it is dirty) are not used because they are unpleasant. I use Lockease for brass key locks. It is a fluided graphite where the liquid carrier evaporates leaving a dry graphite in the journal. Sometimes when movement shows (crystal regulator) I'll use powdered PTFE (teflon) in La Perle oil. These two alternatives offer journal protection for low speed high load applications. They are solid particles that act as ball bearings (think dry sand on a floor under a cardboard box). During extremely high loads they deform and imbed in the part surfaces retaining their low coefficients of friction protecting from abrasive particles reducing wear.

My philosophy is that a well lubed mechanism only has to be cleaned. A clean worn out one needs major work. The trade off is unsightly lube for good performance vs clean looking lube but high wear.

PS

I have only been working on clocks for about 3 years. I have much to learn. If there is a reason not to use graphite I do not know it and honestly would like to. I still have much to learn.

Stewart

 

[Clickman]

Stewart, where do you get your powdered PTFE, and how many parts to x parts of oil? Your write up sounds good, but I have never tried what you use.

 

[stewart]

Hello ibm clcok

I forgot to answer your question. With the graphite I can only guess as no tests have been made. I'll bet it will double any liquid lube. 6 to 10 yrs and I think 20 will be OK. I have clocks running everyday for 3 years on my lubes and so far so good. At this point I keep visually checking the pivot holes for roundness. If you are new, wait as more traditional and tried and true advice will come. I use either on mainsprings also. Read on.

Hello Clickman

I get the powdered PTFE (teflon) from local mom pop hobby shop. The particles are micron size. I have observed under a microscope and they resemble sand grains in shape. For the mix the classic schedule applies, I use a high viscous mix in high power areas and a low viscous mix as torque dimminishes. At high solid mix it becomes a grease I use this on the main springs, at the escape wheel lower amounts of powder are used, I just barely thicken the la perle oil. Remember using the la perle (or your brand) is a backup. The teflon is quite inert and I believe the worst damage that can be done is the clock will only have to be cleaned of the mixture because it is too viscous. The mix must be shaken before each use. I guess ratios are from 50:50 to 20:80 (teflon : oil).

Stewart

 

[shutterbug]

But, IBM, we digress

The clock should be oiled yearly, or every two at the most for optimum life. It should be cleaned every five. That will insure continued longevity for the clock, and if you keep yourself in the same type of regimen you will hopefully continue long enough to give the clock a good run for the money. Of course, I speak metaphorically.

 

[Mike Kenley]

stewart,

I work on clocks and watches and I am a locksmith. My thinking is that since it is now recommended to not use graphite on locks, it should not be used in clocks either.

 

[Larry]

ibm clcok,
Oil your Ingraham mantle clock where each pivot protrudes through each plate front and back and oil a tooth or two on the escape wheel. There is usually no need to oil the levers that control the strike. It wouldn't hurt to oil the hammer pivots and the hammer tail. Also use the same oil to oil the mainsprings. My oil of choice is Mobil 1. When oiling remember less is more so just put a slight drop on each pivot (you don't want the oil to run down the plate).
Oil it every 5 years or if you use Mobil 1 only when the oil is gone.

Larry

 

[Ansomnia]

Originally posted by Larry:
ibm clcok,
Oil your Ingraham mantle clock where each pivot protrudes through each plate front and back and oil a tooth or two on the escape wheel. There is usually no need to oil the levers that control the strike. It wouldn't hurt to oil the hammer pivots and the hammer tail. Also use the same oil to oil the mainsprings. My oil of choice is Mobil 1. When oiling remember less is more so just put a slight drop on each pivot (you don't want the oil to run down the plate).
Oil it every 5 years or if you use Mobil 1 only when the oil is gone.

Larry

Hello Larry, I have heard of people using Mobil 1 or similar oils. I am new to this and am leaning more towards using La Perle as it appears to be the oil of choice from clock repair suppliers.

I also read somewhere else on the forum that automotive oils are likely formulated to spread over a surface more readily than I would like for a clock application. Do you find that happening with Mobil 1?


Michael

 

[Larry]

Michael,
I've used the clock specific synthetics and Mobil 1 and I really can't find a reason to pay more for the clock oil. I seldom do watches or pocket watches and when I do I've always used the watch specific synthetics. I suspect that the Mobil 1 would be fine for the watches too, I've just never used it for watches.
I don't think you can go wrong with La Perle and most people don't use enough clock oil for cost to be a major factor either but then I haven't noticed a difference so why not use Mobil 1?
If I had a customer state a preference in oil I would honor his request but all others, including my own clocks,get Mobil 1.
There have been thousands of words written on this subject, probably on this forum alone, so do a little research, try a variety of the oils available and decide for yourself.

In the end it's your call,

Larry

 

[stewart]

Hello Mike

Is there a reason known why graphite should not be used. Does it react with brass? Any info appreciated as I have been using it for some time now.

Stewart

 

[Ansomnia]

Originally posted by Larry:
Michael,
I've used the clock specific synthetics and Mobil 1 and I really can't find a reason to pay more for the clock oil. I seldom do watches or pocket watches and when I do I've always used the watch specific synthetics. I suspect that the Mobil 1 would be fine for the watches too, I've just never used it for watches.
I don't think you can go wrong with La Perle and most people don't use enough clock oil for cost to be a major factor either but then I haven't noticed a difference so why not use Mobil 1?
If I had a customer state a preference in oil I would honor his request but all others, including my own clocks,get Mobil 1.
There have been thousands of words written on this subject, probably on this forum alone, so do a little research, try a variety of the oils available and decide for yourself.

In the end it's your call,

Larry

Well Larry, I think you gave a reasonable answer. I just wished the "industry" would by now have clearly-established criteria that people can compare one oil against another with in a scientific way. At the moment, it is still hearsay to some degree. I am worried about the spreadability because as I sit here I can see at least one filthy oil mark around the pivot hole for the fly in one of my clocks. Is it normal to have them the size of a nickle!?

A recent issue of "Fine Woodworking" featured a set of tests on rubbed-on finishing oils and one test they used was for the spreadability of oils. They used fine capillary tubes to see how far the oil would move up the tubes by simple capillary action. Of course, in our case, it may theoretically be more accurate to use capillary tubes made of brass!


Michael

 

[David Robertson]

Michael

You said:

I am worried about the spreadability because as I sit here I can see at least one filthy oil mark around the pivot hole for the fly in one of my clocks. Is it normal to have them the size of a nickle!?

A mark the size of a nickle probably means too much oil was used.. not the wrong type.

As the TV commercial used to say... "a little dab will do you".. don't even fill the oil sink all the way. Oil using magnification and just use enough that you can see a ring of oil developing around the pivot in the hole...more than this will just run out (as you have seen).

David

 

[Ansomnia]

Originally posted by David Robertson:
... A mark the size of a nickle probably means too much oil was used.. not the wrong type.

As the TV commercial used to say... "a little dab will do you".. don't even fill the oil sink all the way. Oil using magnification and just use enough that you can see a ring of oil developing around the pivot in the hole...more than this will just run out (as you have seen).

David

Thank you David. Based on the correct amount of oil you pointed out, there must have been way too much oil around that pivot.

What threw me off was that the oil spread UPWARDS by the width of a nickle (as well as creating an Exxon Valdiz size trail BELOW the pivot). Do you think the spinning fly may have helped to cause the oil to flow that far against gravity? A few other pivots seem to have about 1/2 cm of oil spread above them.

Finally, and please pardon my ignorance, but would it be reasonable to say that proper clock oil in proper amounts for a pivot hole should never result in oil found outside the pivot/hole junction? I really appreciate the feedback as I hope to soon rescue an inexpensive little 1-day clock.


Michael

 

[David Robertson]

Michael,

Some oils can spread... sometimes if a plate is dirty the dirt can absorb the oil and cause a spreading dirty patch.

I think you are correct in saying tht a properly oiled pivot with proper oil should not result in oil on the plates.

David

 

[TEACLOCKS]

Thank you stewart,I thought some of the movements I have worked on smelled like a dead meat :frown:

 

[bangster]

Originally posted by stewart:
Hello Mike

Is there a reason known why graphite should not be used. Does it react with brass? Any info appreciated as I have been using it for some time now.

Stewart

I had same question.

bangster

 

[Mike Phelan]

Originally posted by bangster:

Originally posted by stewart:
Hello Mike

Is there a reason known why graphite should not be used. Does it react with brass? Any info appreciated as I have been using it for some time now.

Stewart

I had same question.

bangster

Me too! I thought graphite was just pure carbon and a bit messy - maybe MoS2 is a possibility for mainsprings?

 

[incabloc]

mobil 1? any one tried STP yet? its sticky in comparison to motor oil. BTW I have used gun oil ("Rem Oil" with teflon by remington) on cheaper wrist watches with good results.

 

[Joe Collins]

Hey Phil,
Try that screwdriver trick with sorghum molasses. It works the same way but I wouldn't want to use molasses in a clock. That said, I do use STP on springs and on spring arbors where they come thru the barrel.

Joe

 

[shutterbug]

I'm surprised that this thread is as long as it is
Good clock oil is quite inexpensive when you consider you only use a drop or two on a clock. Why fuss about the cost? An ounce of oil will last a LONG time.

 

[stewart]

Hello Shutterbug

I have an old lathe (a sherline doesn't even compare to its casting flash). I want it to last another 100 years so I am meticulous when it comes to lubricating it. When it wears out it's over. The same goes for these clocks we enjoy. The only sure thing is that they will wear themselves to nothing in time. Oiling them is an extremly important topic (despite the fact that they can run with out oil). Anybody finds anything to make them last, I want to know. The last 3 decades have resulted in great advances in lubrcants. I don think the traditional clock oil companies have the budget for the R&D required. I'll bet if their bosting synthetic they are repackaging another product. I do mix powdered teflon with La Perle and I use the La Perle instead of mobil 1 out of some weird respect for the industry.

Stewart

 

[RJSoftware]

Graphite sounds good. But logically speaking when the fluid portion has dried out, what prevents the dried graphite from simply falling away? (open journal).

I think that Phil has witness the actual answer. A lubricant that last 25 years has to be the way to go.

Perhaps the stp solves the evaporation problem allong with additional oil to prevent oil from being to viscous (sticky).

Phil. So what is the ratio of the mix and how did you get this info? (Curious).

RJ

 

[stewart]

Hello RJ

I'm trying to get away from any liquid that will absorb grit and create a lapping compound. Spread some dry powdered graphite on a dry brass or steel surface, you'll be hard pressed to remove it. One of the liquid lube requirements states that for it to work is that there must be relative motion between the parts. No motion, no lubricating. That includes the brief period when an anchor pivot reverses direction not to mention stopped strike or chime trains which run periodically. As relative surface speeds between parts diminishes viscosity must increase in order to maintain hydrodynamic lubrication (parts are literally floated away from each other). High vis means increased drag to the point the clock will not run. The solid particles of teflon, graphite or MOS2 (moly D) support compressive loads of many thousands of pounds per sq inch in a static state. They are a low friction low wear solid interface between the parts. They do not attract abrasive particles. They imbed in the surfaces raising the mating parts above the abrasive particles.

Brass and steel are a good anti wear combination and even without lube will wear well. I'm just looking for perfection.

Stewart

 

[RJSoftware]

Well, the only true test is time.

You could (for all our bennefit) post a thread on the first day you apply your graphite solution.

Then update that post after periodic inspection.

You might want to develop methods of test mesuring viscosity.

Only thing I can think of to do that is to use smoothing broach to measure any particular bushing hole. To measure bushing holes for wear.

The further the smoothing broach will travel the more wider it is...

I would do the fly, as it is easily removed.

You might even want to oil one bushing hole with regular oil to compare against. (use as the control). Or the stp solution...

Biggest problem is we won't really know anything until a few years pass by. That is unless it really fails badly. In that case you might report back in a few months.

You'll probably have to remind us. I have trouble remembering what I ate for dinner last night...

RJ

 

[David Robertson]

A couple of random comments to a couple of different notes..

1. Synthetic oil doesn't evaporate or lose its light ends like mineral and animal oils did... an additive (like STP) shouldn't be necessary to retard evaporation. (OK... I know there is some evaporation... but it is miniscule in comparison).

2. A smoothing broach may not be the best device for measuring hole wear since a hole doesn't wear round... but rather in a "keyhole" fashion. The smoothing broach will conform to the original hole.

3. When Phil mentioned 30 wt oil and STP I assumed he was using it for mainsprings since this is a relwtively common formulation for this application.

Phil.. do you also use it on pivots?

David