Odd things on Würth Clock

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by KurtinSA, Sep 6, 2018.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,145
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Beginning to work on this clock:

    My Collection has Grown!

    I wasn't clear on who made it, but John updated things a few posts after mine.

    The SN is 7379 and don't see that anywhere else on the clock plates or pendulum. I did find some stampings of "00" at various places. What I haven't seen before are 7 small pin holes on a few of the wheels, all in a line. I've included a picture of the 1st and 2nd wheel with these holes. I'm guessing it's just another way of noting that these go together?

    Also, the pediment (I think that's it) seems to be quasi permanently secured to the front plate. It appears that some brass pins were run into the top of the front plate and the pediment was forced down on those pins. An end-on shot down one of the holes doesn't show any slot for a screwdriver...sorry the one shot is not totally focused. It is what it is as far as I'm concerned...I will not try and separate them and just clean in place.

    The clock has had a rough life it seems. A few teeth were replaced on the main spring barrel...seems like a very nice job. Also, there are quite a few bushings in the plates. I will have to check out the play in the pivots when I get things cleaned up. Hopefully, the bushings will be fine as is.

    Kurt

    WurthWheels.jpg WurthPed1.jpg WurthPed2.jpg
     
  2. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,222
    93
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Kurt,

    This is what the pediment screws look like for Wurth clocks. The strange shape allows the head to be flush with the top edge of the pediment when installed.

    Eric

    C_Screw_a.jpg
     
  3. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,145
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #3 KurtinSA, Sep 8, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
    Here's another thing that I wonder about. The front plate has a bridge screwed to the front to carry the anchor pivot. When comparing the distance between shoulders for the anchor and some of the other arbors, it's clear that the anchor arbor is longer. I wonder if that was done on these clocks at the factory or is this some kind of repair? As I look at it, I'm thinking that this was factory. It's just barely visible, but from the opposite side it appears that the small added plate has "00" stamped on it which is found throughout the clock. So, maybe this was factory.

    Kurt

    WurthFrtPlate.jpg WurthFrtPlateOpp.jpg
     
  4. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,222
    93
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Both Wurth and Kienzle used a bridge on the front plate for the anchor pivots. At some point near the last of their production Wurth stopped using them.

    Eric
     
  5. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,145
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks you kindly! Good to know. As an aside, it appears that the front bridge is not adjustable...some clocks allow for depthing adjustments, but this one seems to be fixed in place.

    Kurt
     
  6. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,222
    93
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #6 etmb61, Sep 8, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
    Kurt,

    Could you show the anchor for your clock? Wurth used at least 3 anchor styles. The earliest I can identify were not adjustable like those used by JUF. The second version was adjustable with the brass anchor relieved around the arbor. Can't explain why they would do that. The most common is adjustable without the extra machining.

    Here is an example or the second version:
    anchor2.jpg

    Eric
     
  7. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,077
    165
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    For info Würth introduced the front pivot bridge for the anchor arbor about Sept-Oct 1904, and as Eric notes they discontinued it in early 1908. Kienzle started making their first movements in late 1907, and all their production from the first examples until they stopped production in 1929 have a front pivot bridge of almost identical design to the Würth. This is only one of several features that Würth and Kienzle shared, unfortunately we don't know whether they cross-licensed their inventions or whether it was a trade. Both were located in Schwenningen not far apart so there could be some logic for this approach.
     
  8. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,145
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Eric -

    Here's the anchor. It's clearly adjustable.

    Kurt

    WurthAnchor.jpg
     
  9. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,145
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Finished broaching the holes in the plates. I might be in trouble on this one. I mentioned there are quite a few bushings. In a couple of holes, the broach wasn't perpendicular to the plate when inserted into the hole. That can't be good! :banghead:

    Kurt
     
  10. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,145
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I've gone through the checks of the arbors between the plates, both individually and in pairs. Ordinarily, I'd move forward with this as I didn't see/feel anything wrong with that.

    But the bushings... With the movement assembled except the anchor, I used a little finger pressure on the spring barrel and looked at the pivot movements in each bushing on both plates. Definitely, several pivots are walking back and forth a bit while others don't appear to move. Guess that's not good! :whistle:

    So what is the issue for the 400-day clock? Can someone give the overview of how bushing wear like this will limit or prevent a 400-day clock from running? I don't do bushings and don't have the equipment. I'll have to take it to a friend to get some help if that's called for.

    Thanks for the insight.

    Kurt
     
  11. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,222
    93
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Kurt,

    You should have end shake on all the arbors. Each arbor was probably made on it's own dedicated machine so there is likely some variance in their finished lengths and that's nothing to worry about. These aren't precision chronometers. However, if the arbor binds between the plates that's a problem.

    Eric
     
  12. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,145
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Eric -

    I don't have any binding and there's good end shake. My issue seems to be really worn bushings which I guess it its own way robs power and/or creates more friction.

    Kurt
     
  13. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,222
    93
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    This may sound like heresy but I never check the pivot holes on 400 day clocks beyond pegging them out. I have several clocks with bushed plates, and at least one where someone took a punch around all the pivot holes, but I have yet to find a 400 day clock where the holes were worn such that the clock would not run.

    Eric
     
  14. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

    Jan 13, 2017
    319
    30
    28
    computer programming stuff
    Baltimore
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    ... well, I have to agree that I have not met a 400 day that seemed worn out by normal action.
    I have met at least one that I am sure had 6 pivots reamed out to at least 1mm diameter.
    ... next time I will bush it.

    I have seen one where the arbor driven by the spring barrel was oblong
    but I only noticed that as part of cleaning the pivot with a square of bamboo.
    clock ran fine.

    victor
     
  15. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,145
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks for the thoughts. I've gone ahead and put the movement together for the initial tests sans motion works. Been running OK for a little while now. I can check in the morning.

    Kurt
     
  16. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,145
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The clock ran surprising well overnight. I have to stop the clock while I'm away...just didn't want it running without some attention. Still have to checkwith the motion works installed and finally dip oil the pivots.

    Kurt
     
  17. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,145
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I put on the motion works and hands yesterday but the clock stopped after about 11-12 hours. It seemed to run just as well but for some reason it couldn't continue. I'm wondering about the tension washer shown in the picture in post #3 above. Different than any I've seen. Also, notice the groove that's worn into the front plate, obviously by the wings of the tension washer once the cannon pinion and hour pipe with hands are installed.

    It took quite a bit of effort to flatten the tension washer so that the minute hand cleared the hole in the center arbor. I'm thinking that's too much pressure which is then forcing the tension washer to possibly drag on the front plate. What's the rule of thumb regarding the positioning of the cannon pinion with respect to the cross hole in the arbor for the securing pin? Clearly, there needs to be some tension there in order to create the drag for the minute hand but at some point, too much isn't good for the clock to run. I have other tension washers, those shaped like a football...maybe I should try one of those.

    Kurt
     
  18. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,222
    93
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I thought that washer looked a bit strange.
     
  19. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,145
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Changed the odd washer out for a football shaped one...less compression needed in order to insert the pin for the minute hand. We'll see...

    Kurt
     
  20. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

    Jun 24, 2011
    2,964
    79
    48
    Male
    Medical Insurance Systems Analyst
    El Dorado, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Yeah. Nothing that touches the minute arbor should be touching the plate, also.
    The washer stops on the stepped arbor, just short of the plate and provides the friction needed to drive the minute hand.
     
  21. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,145
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Clocks been running well since 11am yesterday. I think it's time to finish it out and get it up on the shelf.

    Kurt
     
  22. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

    Jun 24, 2011
    2,964
    79
    48
    Male
    Medical Insurance Systems Analyst
    El Dorado, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Are we sure this one didn't use a pinched pipe to provide drive friction?
     
  23. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,145
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I'm pretty sure...I didn't notice that when I took things apart a bit ago to finish the oiling process and install the dial. At any rate, the new tension washer seems to have done the trick...runs well and there's about the right resistance when setting the time.

    Kurt
     
  24. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,222
    93
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Kurt,

    I had to check. The lowest numbered Wurth I own is 8069. It has the typical football shaped tension washier.

    Eric
     
  25. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,145
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Eric -

    Hopefully you didn't take your clock apart to check that...maybe you just have good notes! :clap:

    Thanks for the update...Kurt
     
  26. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,222
    93
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It's for the cause.
     

Share This Page