Odd lot thread

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Keith R..., Dec 6, 2018.

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  1. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Back to silver with my old Henry Wolfe "hack" watch. So thanks to John Matthews,
    my new background.

    PS.......Despite what it says on the dial, it's not a chronograph. It's a 3/4 plate
    lever hack watch.

    Keith R...

    100_4280 (1600x1200).jpg 103_8563 (800x600).jpg
     
  2. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I'm buying a lottery ticket tonight!!

    What are the odds, two collectors in the states, both have Liverpool runners by the same
    shop in the UK. Get sent out and assigned to different jewelers in the 1850's and show up
    on "The Only Real Watch Message Board" in 2019.

    If I win, I'll split with Graham, Ray, John M., PL, Martin, Oliver & Allan.

    Add this, I just looked out the front computer room window and a deer just walked
    past the coon dog sleeping on the porch. She's still sleeping on the porch.

    Keith R...
     
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  3. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I've got three watches spending weeks in the USPS system and I spend my days checking
    status.

    I think when I get these last three in, I'll do something different.

    Keith R...
     
  4. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    So I'm going back with Fed Ex..........or maybe UPS. I've got the Fed Ex experience, no horror
    stories. The German Shepard didn't eat the last driver, although she had an issue with the last
    UPS guy. She had jumped up and grabbed some biscuit he had laying on his center console.

    I was bragging on how she knew to get the wrapper off, but for some reason that didn't trip his
    trigger. You would think the guy knows he's got poor hungry dogs to feed on his route, he should
    bring extra food, or close the cab door. Seriously, it's farming manners in the KY wilderness!!
    There should be UPS rule 61 to cover this.

    OK, I got my eye cast on a lever................just thought I warn you would be bidders. Roskell 168,
    lookout. Maybe I should go for a London lever.

    Keith R...

    103_2841 (800x600).jpg brink5 (800x800).jpg brink (600x800).jpg 103_2843 (800x600).jpg
     
  5. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I have found quite a few watches tonight. Lot of good early listings. If I'm
    joking and cutting up, that's an indicator.

    Keith R...
     
  6. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    Keith, is that who you're calling a German Shepherd? :^:^:^

    He looks much more like a lurcher to me ... but he's certainly not German, nor is he a shepherd :chuckling: But you can mail him to me any time you like ...
     
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  7. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Martin,

    Of course not, that's Keith's coon dog, a breed we don't see here very often. Looks to me to be something akin to a Labrador, but Keith will no doubt correct me on that!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  8. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Red Bone Coon hound for Graham and a Long haired Shepard for
    Martin!:) Check out Tacoma's morning eyes.

    Keith R...

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  9. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I think two finds tonight..............I'm looking forward to my morning cup of coffee and
    asking Ray about the two!

    Keith R...

    103_0716 (800x600).jpg
     
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  10. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #210 Keith R..., Mar 6, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
    I await three watches, two gorgeous Verges and an early American rail road
    watch. When I say Sat time (satellite time I am referring to my Lap top) linked
    time. I go by this, as opposed to my Lan line phone line, which is always two
    minutes behind.

    I use the lap top Sat time to verify my serviced "base" watch, in comparison to
    the test watch for it's 24 hour timed test. So look for at least two old Verge timed
    test this weekend, Anderton of Liverpool 1800 and Blew of London 1818.

    Edit: American original, Anderton re-cased, Blew original. Both the Anderton and Blew
    are in silver pair cases. Note, I'm treating Blew like the fictitious name of my Liverpool
    Champion verge. I believe Blew is a Retailer selected name, for the American market.
    Misspelled Anderton of Liverpool, edit corrected.


    Keith R...

    bwr9 (1600x1200).jpg ANDE (1200x1600).jpg blew (1200x1600).jpg
     
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  11. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #211 Keith R..., Mar 6, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
    Well, the Anderton arrived at the post office from Canada. While I was on the phone
    with Ray, I got the opportunity to wind it up on it's shut down time. So it is running and
    currently timing with my Barraud. So it's test officially started at 12:39 PM EST.

    I checked it in all positions and it is doing fine. So I have it running in the kitchen,
    away from the coon dog. The Blew verge is a Bosley regulated watch. It should
    arrive Friday.

    edit, I estimate because of it's Tompion regulator and it is old style on the scale,
    it was made between 1790 and 1800. Note the 1833 Birmingham case fits well,
    but it's second generation.

    edit 2, I will do a separate post tonight on different Tompion scales with known dates.

    Keith R...

    100_4335 (1600x1200).jpg 100_4339 (1600x1200).jpg ANDE3 (1600x1200).jpg
     
  12. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Well, while I was back here typing the hands hung up on the Anderton and stopped the
    show. I cleared the hands and re-set the minute hand. Now it will be off on the timed test,
    so today's exercise now is to see if it will run the full length of the chain. It appears to have
    been cleaned recently and I believe someone put a mismatching minute hand back on the
    watch. I will observe the next hours passing at 5 minutes after, to ensure I have the hand
    clearance needed.

    edit 1, I will re-run a timed test after the first shut down.

    Keith R...
     
  13. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #213 Keith R..., Mar 6, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
    Shooting freehand, nickel or gold.

    The nickel is a trick where I reverse the light and do it free hand, no light box.
    The gold, I'm still trying to figure out how to keep the glare out of the pendant.

    Pics 3 & 4, light box added.

    Suggestions welcome.

    Keith R...

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  14. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Just checked in on the Anderton. It's running about 10 minutes slow. So when it shuts down
    I'll make an adjustment to the Tompion disk. I'm used to the disk being on the other side, I
    assume a clockwise turn one click, will speed it up.

    Keith R...

    ANDE3 (1600x1200).jpg 100_4335 (1600x1200).jpg
     
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  15. Duncanbootmaker

    Duncanbootmaker Registered User

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    G'day Keith,
    What I've found works well for taking photos of nice shiny things is to use a piece of tracing paper held between a desk lamp and the object in question. Move it around until the highlight pattern is what you want. eg: If you look at the dial you can see the square of paper lit up by the lamp, and the diffuse shadows. Moving the paper closer or further away from the lamp will give different lighting effects.

    IMG_1876.JPG
    Another way, if your camera's flash is a little bit away from the lens, is to make a cone out of the tracing paper with the top of the cone the right size for the lens to fit into, and make it a double layer of paper on the side of the flash.
    I tried this with my iPod, with the flash right next to the lens, and it didn't work, but with my Nikon Coolpix, where the flash is about 1 1/2" away from the lens, it does. Basically the flash needs to make a glancing shot down the outside of the cone, causing it all to light up without any particular 'hot spots'. The photo below is using this method, though I was short on tracing paper so the cone is a bit on the small side (You can see it sneaking in). Make the bottom wider.

    IMG_1871.JPG

    The first photo is through the crystal; no unpleasant shine.

    DSCN4310.JPG
    And this one is with the front open, and you can see a little bit of the image of the flash just under the IX.

    DSCN4311.JPG
    I have found doing this makes a huge difference to photos down between the plates. Gives a matte glow over the whole lot and reaches in deep.

    K.JPG

    Cheers
    Duncan
     
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  16. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    90172 2 Hamilton.jpg
    It took me a while to find this for you, Keith .... but my memory was (just) up to it!
     
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  17. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Thanks Duncan and Martin. I'm working on my focal plain of
    the cheap camera, since I'm used to it.

    Keith R...

    100_4315 (1600x1200).jpg
     
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  18. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    The Blew verge is a dud. Locked up and won't wind. I've asked for
    a return due to arriving damaged. His sales statement was, did not want
    to wind it because he heard it causes damage to a watch.

    So back to seller.

    Keith R...
     
  19. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I'll have to re-fire this one tomorrow at 8:30 (whichever one I'm awake for) and run the test.
    It gained before it quit. So I think now that it likes running, I'll see if it's running a bit fast.

    It winds smooth and ticks very loud. Anderton - 1800 Liverpool.

    Keith R...

    100_4335 (1600x1200).jpg
     
  20. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #220 Keith R..., Mar 8, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
    The Anderton Verge is running good in all positions and as of this typing, it's about +2 minutes
    since the 8:30 A.M. start time. So I feel getting 6 minutes back will be the target with one click
    counter clockwise, on the Tompion regulator.

    I managed to pick up a Going barrel rail road key wind from the same collector I grabbed the
    Savage 2 pin lever from. It's a 15 jewel adjusted open face key wind by the National Watch Co.
    (Elgin). My corresponding English watch from 1850 would be the rail road equivalent after
    adjustments for positions to each, at time of use (if used in rail service). The national Watch Co.
    key wind was produced in 1871. The Oliver Gerrish watch is a 17J Liverpool runner hallmarked
    in a Ralph Samuel's case, for 1850. The Gerrish watch is a lever fusee.

    I don'y own any Going barrel English watches.

    Keith R...

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  21. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    The Anderton will reach +one hour in 24.

    Probably 2 clicks counter clockwise in the end, but how does one eat an elephant:???:,
    "One bite at a time".

    Keith R...
     
  22. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Let's hope the Scale works clockwise to slow the Anderton down, it's all I was
    left with. The scale was bottomed out at IV. Here's the funny thing, I fell asleep
    and woke up the watch stopped at 3:15. I adjusted the Tompion and was going
    to start it up one hour behind and track it to the BW Raymond until I remembered
    tonight is daylight saving time and it goes back one hour anyway. So now on time.

    Keith R...
     
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  23. PatH

    PatH National Program Chair
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    I generally end statements such as Keith's with...."yet" as I have found that to be the case more times than not. ;)

    Pat
     
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  24. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Good point Pat, accepted too!

    Well, as I suspected with the Tompion on the right side of the cock, rotating Clockwise
    slows it. Now remember from my last post, the verge is running 1 hour behind the BWR.

    I went ahead and rotated clockwise 2 clicks since it was +1 hour/24hrs.

    Not to shabby, but you can see I'm one minute or so behind, one hour in.

    PS........Don't forget about time reset tonight at midnight.

    Keith R...

    100_4620 (1600x1200).jpg
     
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  25. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I thought I would provide a running list of accurate verges in my collection. Accuracy is defined
    as timing in all positions, including carried @ + or - 2 minutes in 24 hours.

    All are in silver hallmarked pair cases, unless noted otherwise. John Fairey 1802 photo.

    John Grant Sr.................................1790 London (re-cased 1824)
    Van Wyck ......................................1796 New York jeweler (London)
    Fairey ............................................1802 (shop case) consular London
    Roberts ..........................................1807 (calendar) London
    Champion ......................................1811 (fake name) Liverpool
    Dubree .......................................... 1820 (English front wind) consular London
    Ulph ...............................................1820 Liverpool
    Davis .............................................1834 Vale & Rotherman

    100_4083 (1024x768).jpg
     
  26. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    I've often wondered about these "center seconds chronographs" or hack watches. I have a bunch with no cases now. Because of the age, were they the original "chronographs" ? and then later on it was considered a watch in which the time train keeps going?
     
  27. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #227 Keith R..., Mar 9, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
    Think of a hack watch as a Time only lever with a sweep second hand you can activate
    a slide, to stop and restart the watch. Now you will lose the amount of time between
    stop and start.

    A chronograph will remain timing when the sweep seconds hand stops and restarts.
    Here's my Wolfe hack watch 1872 and also a Swiss chronograph watch 1895.

    So a center second lever is a hack watch, but NOT a chronograph.

    Hope this helps.

    Keith R...

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  28. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    Well I understand the current terminology. I have always called the old english (or swiss copies) "center seconds chronographs" hack watches because they all say chronograph on the dial but are, as you said, just a lever watch (or cylinder for swiss I have these too, labeled patent chronograph, I also have most of a hack verge but its not really related lol) with the hack lever. Or in an E Wise, Manchester movement I have, a single push style button.
    I was more wondering about the use of the word chronograph at the time.
    I'm guessing it was a bit similar to the use of the word chronometer and shifted over the years?
     
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  29. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #229 Keith R..., Mar 10, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
    I use the English concept and all the prevailing examples for pocket
    chronometers, of which I am a proud owner of one, Circa 1881. It
    is J. Radges in a shop silver case, of a unique design. Now although
    small, about 50MM, it weighs about 5.4 ounces. Of course not much
    to worry about regarding it's weight, I doubt one would carry such
    a watch, as mine is display only and I run it on occasion. I share a
    photo of the Radges chronometer with my English Ward 11j lever
    HM 1836.
    .

    When it comes to the Swiss and their definition of a chronometer, I
    follow the great Jules Jurgensen and his pivoted detent chronometers
    from about 1850, PM me and I can provide you photos.

    Now a message for anyone following the Anderton verge. The clockwise
    2 click rotation of the Tompion disk, cured my timing problem. I suspect
    with the next running of the Anderton, I can add an 8th verge as an an
    accurate example within my verge watches. I project it will be +2.5 min
    in 24 hours (close enough to make me happy).

    Edit, I'm boxing up my Simon's Duplex for a trip to MT.

    Keith R...

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  30. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #230 Keith R..., Mar 10, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
    I've been caught up in verge purchases of late. I probably should get back to my
    levers. I'm boxing up my Duplex to get it restored, even though I only have it in
    an inner case.

    So I'll start my thinking back on levers after tonight. Here's an area I would like to
    focus on from my end, 1830 to 1850 levers, conventional and runners. I have
    several from the 1830's and 1840's.

    Shown 1832, 1842 & 1842. Pics #1 & #3 restored after photos.

    I actually have no preference, both trains get the job done.

    Keith R...

    jj536 (600x800).jpg jj811 (800x800).jpg 103_0459 (800x600).jpg
     
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  31. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I had a most interesting experience between Going Barrels and my fusee watches.
    Ray and I have had many conversations regarding hand made vs. machine made.
    I have not given much thought to scarce on the Going Barrel side. It's doubtful I
    could ever get there. As an example, I own a series I E Howard KWKS, but they
    made 1800. If 900 survive, I doubt we could squeak out the word scarce.

    On my fusee side though, there are certain makers one can get a feel for the word
    scarce. From my perspective and Ray's, we have some names and my guess would
    be less then 5 or 6 that have been recorded. An easy example is Stephen Van Wyck,
    as we know only about 19 survive. I admit I reserve my purchase dollars for my Fusee's,
    but I'm not alone in my thinking. Does it command a price, I don't know, I don't sell my
    watches. I know for John Dwerrihouse cylinders, the surviving and recorded rate is
    in the low digits. I always check in on David Penney's site, or touch base with Pete
    at Cogs & P. Of course I could come up with a flawed example, like a rack lever
    from L. Lawrance of London (who's ever seen one?). So I set aside the low production
    guys and gauge with those that can measured. Just some field thoughts. Here's a low
    production guy, but is he scarce? John Jackson 14J Rack lever, 1820.

    Keith R...

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  32. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #232 Keith R..., Mar 11, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
    My strange experience was with Jones & Horan in post #231.

    Rats, missed the Aussie watch by about $300.

    Keith R...

    PS...If I get up in time, I can fire up the Anderton verge and carry it for a day.
    Set for a launch on any given 9:25.

    100_4620 (1600x1200).jpg
     
  33. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Keith,

    Not so much 'how many were made', but 'how many did this retailer sell'? If you look at how many were made by that workshop, that's an entirely different matter, and one that can't easily be answered unless the identifying stamps are recorded, which for the majority of watches, they aren't.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  34. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Thanks Graham. I once asked John for a list of retailers and he gave me a small slice and it
    was deemed over daunting.

    On the home front I'm running the Anderton today as a carry watch from post #232 (the verge).
    I suspect it's 1800, but in a later pair case from 1833.

    Keith R...
     
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  35. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #235 Keith R..., Mar 11, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
    Well the Anderton has maintained timing through out the day. So add this one to
    the accuracy list and it's verge #9. It's also on the money.

    Keith R...

    Anderton........................................1800 Liverpool (re-case 1833)
    John Grant Sr.................................1790 London (re-cased 1824)
    Van Wyck .......................................1796 New York jeweler (London)
    Fairey .............................................1802 (shop case) consular London
    Roberts ..........................................1807 (calendar) London
    Champion ......................................1811 (fake name) Liverpool
    Dubree .......................................... 1820 (English front wind) consular London
    Ulph ...............................................1820 Liverpool
    Davis ..............................................1834 Vale & Rotherman
     
  36. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    After playing around with the light box, I finally reached my cameras focal plain.

    So I should be set, going forward. Still adjusting movement shots.

    Keith R...

    100_4638 (1600x1200).jpg 100_4643 (1600x1200).jpg 100_4654 (1600x1200).jpg 100_4661 (1600x1200).jpg 100_4410 (1600x1200).jpg 100_4541 (1600x1200).jpg
     
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  37. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I thought I would share with you guys, one of my best time keepers. It is James Poole
    from the 1880's. This watch is slim and heavy at 54MM. I purchased it as a re-case.

    Keith R...

    100_4678 (1600x1200).jpg 100_4687 (1600x1200).jpg 100_4694 (1600x1200).jpg 100_4684 (1600x1200).jpg
     
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  38. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Keith,

    I'd be surprised if it wasn't; James Poole, along with his son James U and brother John were amongst the top London makers of chronometers and fine watches in the second half of the 19th century.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  39. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Thanks Graham................if I'm in and out next several days, check with Ray. My girlfriends
    son passed away from a long illness. :):(

    Keith R...
     
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  40. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Long day, don't have chocolate twinkies at 5 PM............Makes for a Long nap!

    Here's a dial shot I've never been able to get until getting the camera set up.

    Keith R...

    100_4674 (1600x1200).jpg
     
  41. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #241 Keith R..., Mar 14, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
    I do believe while we have our knowledgeable folks like Graham, John M. and Ray,
    I can study a maker out of London or Liverpool, circa 1720 or so, then ultimately
    own one as part of the collection (new goal). My other goal, a conventional train
    11-17J out of London or Liverpool, C 1840.

    (Be they expert or collector).

    Keith R...
     
  42. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    This will be a good closing weekend on that electronic "A site". ;)

    S/E/E.............

    Keith R...

    100_1971 (800x600).jpg
     
  43. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Vulture grab...........$99 3oz coin silver case with civil war markings.
    Seller left on photo I could read the lid. It came in. I'd place the
    case 18 size about 1860. Should be good for a 62 Waltham.

    Could use it for spare movements, but love the option, since I have
    both.

    So this weekend is European grab and go!

    Keith R...

    CWE (1600x1600).jpg
     
  44. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #244 Keith R..., Mar 17, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
    Here's my ground change up for the next three months. Carry one a month and
    give it a rest. I call these my three Amigo's.

    Tremont, (Swiss parts), A Saltzman, Swiss lever, Barraud, English lever.
    **The gold filled Tremont, mostly in house.

    Keith R...

    100_4740 (1600x1200).jpg 100_2631 (800x600).jpg 100_3703 (800x600).jpg
     
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  45. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #245 Keith R..., Mar 18, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
    Updated verge list

    Jones, JB........................................1832 Boston Mass
    Anderton.......................................1800 Liverpool (re-case 1833)
    John Grant Sr.................................1790 London (re-cased 1824)
    Van Wyck .......................................1796 New York jeweler (London)
    Fairey .............................................1802 (shop case) consular London
    Roberts ..........................................1807 (calendar) London
    Champion ......................................1811 (fake name) Liverpool
    Dubree .......................................... 1820 (English front wind) consular London
    Ulph ...............................................1820 Liverpool
    Davis ..............................................1834 Vale & Rotherman

    Keith R...
     
  46. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #246 Keith R..., Mar 19, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
    The Taylor legacy continues...........Now this one famous for US watch market,
    1850-1864. Now the case is 1897. The balance wheel, looks 1870's, but I'd put
    9xxx in early 1860. So I'm saying it's a re-case. No side shots, but I'm certainly
    curious.

    I also just found a famous one from 1824 and can't wait to talk with Ray, and I
    just had him on the phone. I even sniped this watch while he was on the phone
    and I mentioned it after the win.

    BTW, if a watch I bring in is a re-case or I think it is, it comes to the Odd lot thread.

    But I like it.

    Keith R...

    DAV1 (715x912).jpg DAV5 (1600x1515).jpg DAV3 (864x864).jpg
     
  47. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    For you guys that can't count that's 17 jewels, for you guys that can't see, that's ruby jewels
    (garnets). If you get lost easy, that's a London Liverpool runner. I needed a nap between
    posts.............ha!

    This goes with post #246.

    Keith R...

    DAV2 (876x687).jpg DAV (1409x1405).jpg DAV4 (1600x1066) (2).jpg
     
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  48. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Keith,

    ??
     
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  49. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #249 Keith R..., Mar 19, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
    Ruby...............we called them Garnets in NC. Call it a Ruby.:)

    Ruby's.

    Keith R...

    PS...Graham, google Hiddenite, N.C.
     
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  50. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Keith,

    Garnets were certainly used for lower quality jewelling but they're much softer than corundum (ruby and sapphire).

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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