Odd lot thread

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Keith R..., Dec 6, 2018.

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  1. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    I'd say that the dents in the first one have been filed rather than flattened:

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  2. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    I believe I understand your point, 'flatten' interpreted to mean without removal of material. Do you think Jonathon was really meaning that? - i.e. flatten by percussion or even pressure when the cock was screwed down (surely not), rather than filing. Would it not be easier to control the adjustment by gradually removing material by filing? I would have thought it would be the preferred method.

    Just scanned Marine Chronometers again and I cannot find any photographs showing the flattened adjustment burrs. My only very slight regret, with what is an outstanding piece of work, with brilliant descriptions, is lack of detailed photographs. In his talk did he illustrate any of these 'adjustment burrs' ?

    John
     
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  3. Andrew Wilde

    Andrew Wilde Registered User
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    Hi John,
    The figures I gave, in the post before yours, were for examples with the raised bars or strips, as shown in posts #692/693. I will not have made note of examples with small "pillar" adjustment burrs or batching marks (in my defence, I'm relatively new to this and didn't know what I was looking at, or what I was overlooking, so it was just the bars that caught my attention). From now on I'll look for the other features too.
    Thanks ... Andy
     
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  4. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Andy

    This example of yours ... -

    upload_2020-5-11_15-8-31.png

    I would interpret two sets of marks. What may be original 'adjustment burrs' - the three aligned running down from 10 to 4 - and what could be later repairer's attempts to resolve endshake - the long groove at the bottom and the 5 (+ 1 very short) grooves close the three burrs. Now that is just one possible interpretation from the photograph. The relative height of the marks might improve to the interpretation.

    John
     
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  5. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    To the best of my recollection, he just spoke about the way they were used, by progressively tightening down the cock; I think this could well leave little visual sign of flattening. I'll ask him if you like!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  6. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Graham -Yes, please - a photograph would be much appreciated :)

    Would you consider using burrs and flattening them by screwing down the cock to achieve final adjustment?

    John
     
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  7. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    Of me, Jonathan, the watch, or all three?

    In a word, no . . .

    Because I wouldn't be in a position of making a watch from scratch, and if I was making a replacement staff, I'd make it to the correct length!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  8. Andrew Wilde

    Andrew Wilde Registered User
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    Hi John,
    I've taken another look at the Johnstone. The "original adjustment burrs" as you describe above appear to be done pre-gilding - they remain gilded, showing no sign of having been filed or flattened - they appear to have a rounded top. The 5 (+1) grooves also look to have been made pre-gilding, whereas the longer one at the bottom looks to be later - no sign of gilding in that one. I can't provide any information on relative heights - I have no way of measuring that.
    The more I think about the grooves, the less convinced I am that they have anything to do with adjustment - I don't see how a groove changes the angle of the cock with respect to the plate, unless it were to align perfectly with raised burrs on the plate, which isn't the case. Even it did, it's unnecessary.
     
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  9. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Moderator
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    It is not the groove. It is the burr raised in making the groove. Watch repair people see these often on pocket watches.

    It is an appealing way to make a watch especially an old Elnglish lever or verge. Staff length adjusting was risky. Also the ends wore. If they made the staff a bit long and raised burrs, they could press the cock down by screwing it in to get fine endshale adjustment and with more force as the staff wore.

    Repairers, even good ones, still do it today. Not desired, but if you have just replaced a staff or cleaned a watch with previous burrs and it is just a bit too long it takes a lot less time to raise burr and be done with it and not have to charge the customer. We always look for them when we remove a balance cock because that tells us whether or not to hard tighten the balance cock screw, unless the customer wants this matter fixed.
     
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  10. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Graham - I am probably showing my lack of understanding ...

    According to Jonathon fitting the escapement to a movement that has reached this stage,

    20181118 014.jpg

    often involved the 'adjustment burr' approach. Couldn't the escapement maker also make the staff the correct length as you would, I don't see that it would be any different from making a replacement staff the correct length, than the original one?

    I think the light may have dawned :rolleyes: If the escapement maker was not making bespoke shafts, i.e. when working on a batch of 'standard' movements, he would probably have a stock of 'standard' shafts and might then use the 'adjustment burr' technique. If that is so, we might expect to see a combination of batch marks and burrs, rather more frequently than seeing the burrs on high quality movements.

    Does that make sense?

    John
     
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  11. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    If the frames were supplied to very close tolerances, and if the staffs were made to equally close tolerances, these subterfuges wouldn't be required. However, we know that, being largely handmade, there were variations from piece to piece, no matter how skilled the craftsmen concerned, (and many were outstanding). Additionally, that the whole methodology of English watchmaking for much of its long existence relied on fitting the part to the previous man's work; even John Wycherley's 'making to gauge' didn't substantially change this, (and if you read Richard Watkins' latest epic, it also had rather less impact on the US experience than many people think).

    Making staffs slightly over-length is a safe technique, but Dr.Jon is right that rounding-up pivots to provide correct endshake isn't risk-free, even with a properly handled Jacot tool, which may require more time to set up than some judicious prods with a graver. Many of these men were on piece rates, and not very high ones at that.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  12. Andrew Wilde

    Andrew Wilde Registered User
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    Dr Jon, thanks for the clarification. On my movement, the burrs made by "grooving" are no longer detectable - I guess they were either not needed or served their purpose over time ... Andy
     
  13. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Andy,

    It depends on where the mark is made relative to the cock screw. If the mark is 'inboard' of the screw, between it and the step up to the table, the table will be tilted up and the endshake will be increased, whereas if it's 'outboard' of the screw, between it and the rim of the foot, the table will tilt down and the endshake will be reduced. This will apply regardless of whether the marks are in the plate or the cock foot. A small amount of tilt in the foot will result in a larger change in endshake.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  14. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Moderator
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    The other risk factor we often forget is that the steel was not reliable. It had inclusions and hard spots, in today's tech speak "non stochasticity" . Material was expensive and labor cheap/. A finisher could do everything right, and, after the apprenticeships they endured, they usually did, but a bit could still break off.


    Also, the brass for the plates was not all that stable or hard. The staff could be right and after a few passes the pressure on the lower plate could indent it a bit especially during making from the grey.

    They were shooting at moving targets.

    They were paid by the piece and hey had no "safety net". They got the work out and moved on as best they could. Much more likely to retailers they knew were never going to disassemble the watch before selling it.
     
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  15. Andrew Wilde

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    Hi Graham, yes, clearly thats the case if the grooves have resulted in burrs. If the grooves have no burrs/raised edges (i.e. they are simply indents, as is the case on my Johnstone movement) they will have no effect - lack of material won't produce a tilt in the table.

    At the risk of completely hijacking the thread and sending it down a rat hole that bores the pants off everyone else, I'm also struggling with the idea that tilting the table to increase or decrease end shake is ever a good idea mechanically, as it will alter the angle at which the balance staff sits, so increasing friction between staff pivots and their seating. I guess we could argue that this would be minimal, but I've had a verge with a sliver of paper under the balance foot which when removed results in the verge pallets not engaging with the crown wheel; putting it back and they engage again, so the shift in the staff position by a small tilt in the table is significant (a badly worn verge probably made worse by this "fix", but illustrates the point).
    So I'd speculate that finding burrs both sides of the cock screw to enable raising or lowering of the table rather than tilting it might be an indication of quality, or at least pride in workmanship.
     
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  16. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Keith, three days ago I got out my Hornby full hunter with a Massey III escapement, and after 24 hours it was 90 seconds fast, so I wound it up and on day two it was 2 minutes fast, today it is at the moment two minutes fast. So later today I will try and adjust it. So get ready with a Massey III for next week-then we can burn the track.

    Edit: No seconds dial on this one-thirty tooth escape wheel.

    Allan.
     
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  17. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Andy,

    Yes, that's true, and it clearly isn't good practice for the reason you state, but there's often so much wear in the escapement that there's plenty of sideshake to accommodate the tilt. I'm often surprised by how some verges can run at all with their evident wear and out of upright arbors. At least slips of paper are easily reversible!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  18. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Andy - I for one am not bored and in fact I am finding this discussion far more interesting than many threads.

    I'm sure Keith will indicate if he would prefer for this discussion to be put into a separate thread. If that is the case, I'm sure Dr Jon will be more than willing to separate the relevant posts into a new thread.

    I attach some further examples and I will try and draw some inferences upon which I would really appreciate comment.


    upload_2020-5-12_10-16-54.png upload_2020-5-12_10-17-52.png upload_2020-5-12_10-18-47.png upload_2020-5-12_10-19-36.png upload_2020-5-12_10-21-29.png upload_2020-5-12_10-20-11.png upload_2020-5-12_10-20-51.png


    My inferences:
    • some escapement makers, used adjustment burrs routinely as part of their working practice;
    • normally the were made after an initial fitting of the escapement and before gilding;
    • in most cases a group of burrs were made at one cock foot ends - depending on whether the staff was identified as being long or short at the initial fitting;
    • less frequently on the plate corresponding to the position of one end of the cock foot;
    • after gilding, when the final adjustment to the escapement was made, there were three possible outcomes:-
      • flattening of the burrs, as a result of tightening the cock achieved a 'perfect fit';
      • additional adjustment was necessary and further 'higher burrs' were created;
      • the tightening cock failed to flatten burrs - they were still too high - material was removed by various methods.
    John
     
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  19. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    My initial thought is that the point in the life of the watch when the burrs were modified is unknown; were they flattened during initial manufacture or subsequently as part of a repair?

    I think that Jonathan's conclusions on this matter, as described in the Catalogue, may be coloured by the fact that box chronometers were not normally subjected to the attentions of jobbing repairers but were serviced by more skilled people.

    If Keith is amenable, I certainly agree that this subject deserves a separate thread, even if the audience is, by its very nature, somewhat limited.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  20. Andrew Wilde

    Andrew Wilde Registered User
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    Keith has confirmed via PM that he's happy with it to be here
     
  21. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    The photographs below, are I feel quite rare, they are in the dust cap of an M. J. Tobias watch, not only T & Co. but the watch number next to it 2534, then to top it all, down below the initials IG. Will be a nice Rack Lever when putting it back together.

    Keith, when I was about to wind the Hornby this afternoon, it was still only two minutes fast, so at some period it keeps steady time, any ideas??

    Allan.

    30-11.JPG 30-10.JPG 30-12.JPG
     
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  22. Andrew Wilde

    Andrew Wilde Registered User
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    John, I think your inferences in post 718 are reasonable. Perhaps now that I'm going to be looking more closely under the cock foot, as maybe one or two others might be, we'll find something that questions this understanding, or adds to it. I feel more knowledgable today than I did a couple of days ago when I asked the question, , so all good... Andy
     
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  23. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Allan - see 'Your Time' p. 46 for similar on #4450, also I have noted on #5137 - I don't think it is too uncommon on serial numbers < #8,000, but most people don't bother to photograph the underside of the cap.

    John
     
  24. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Yes John, but they don´t have IG in there like the above. So I would say very rare. (What as 8000 got to do with it)? 2534 is on my watch.

    Allan.
     
  25. Andrew Wilde

    Andrew Wilde Registered User
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    Just arrived today, my latest English cylinder movement - won on the big auction site a fortnight ago, US seller.
    Bentley & Beck, Royal Exchange, London, serial number 1702, possibly 1815/16 or a little earlier (s/n 1754 is seen in an 1816 gold case). Bought as a non-runner, so pleased that it runs for a few minutes at a time after a small wind, but appears that mainspring is slipping/broken and the chain is now fully wound onto the fusee. Very clean and bright between the plates, perfect dial and good solid gold hands, although possibly not a matched pair. Will be stripping it down to investigate further and search for a replacement mainspring, if that is indeed the problem.
    It has the setup click above the barrel bridge rather than under the dial, which I've only seen on later "Liverpool Runner" layouts; I think this a very unusual but would be happy to be told otherwise.

    IMG_20200513_220627.jpg IMG_20200513_220914.jpg IMG_20200513_221227.jpg
     
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  26. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Interesting Andy, here is my Barwise cyl from 1805 w/o exposed click. Almost
    a dup. I think yours is earlier.

    Note in general, I create separate threads for early makers such as my
    John Grant 1790.

    Keith R...

    Barwise 3 (800x600).jpg Barwise 2 (900x1200).jpg Barwise (900x1200).jpg
     
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  27. Andrew Wilde

    Andrew Wilde Registered User
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    I was right about the mainspring in the Bentley & Beck cylinder !

    IMG_20200514_152345.jpg
     
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  28. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    This old 1826 verge went South on timing, but I reeled it back in. I also
    started final timing on the unknown 14J from 1828.

    Keith R...

    baird3 (1200x900).jpg 100_5527 (1200x900).jpg uk3 (750x1000).jpg uk5 (1000x750) - Copy.jpg uk6 (1000x750).jpg
     
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  29. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #729 Keith R..., May 19, 2020
    Last edited: May 19, 2020
    I'm back on track with the Baird verge in post #728 to plus 30 seconds in 24hrs
    compared to my 15J US Watch Co. Marion NJ. The first time the seller timed
    it, but it did not seat properly. It is now timing consistently.

    My 14J lever from post #728, is still in the plus category that I will make one final
    adjustment for. It takes a little more time on Bosley style regs., to seat properly.

    Keith R...

    PS.....Timing tonight, the Dubree verge from 1820, shown. Note, purchased from
    same seller that timed the Baird above. I had discussed with Ray, he said ask
    Graham........I was fixing too!

    100_3371 (1600x1200).jpg
     
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  30. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #730 Keith R..., May 21, 2020
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
    Well, the Dubree verge turned out at +3 minutes in 24 (I'll take it, it's 1820 and a
    Bosley reg).

    I also had one of my Howard's over-bank on me, (I corrected today after 3 months).
    Also, my 4wheel is back.

    Pooch................

    Keith R...

    103_7455 (800x600).jpg 100_5923 (1000x750).jpg
     
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  31. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    While Ray was yacking this morning about a nice movement he picked up, it's
    quality and provenance made me forget the question I had for him.

    English gold balance wheels were available until the 1900's. Were any of the
    wheels marked with numbers on the balance arms, post 1850?

    Just curious. I'm blind on close ups.

    Keith R...

    100_1738 (800x600) - Copy.jpg
     
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  32. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Keith,

    I can't recall ever seeing an English balance of any age, plain or compensated, with any numbers anywhere.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  33. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #733 Keith R..., May 23, 2020
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
    Thanks Graham!

    An unmarked gold balance wheel had shown up on a model 1859 I just purchased.
    I don't have it in hand yet, but I suspect it's from a model 59 AT&Co grade that did
    have a gold balance wheel (15J). The one I bought is 19J. If it has a number, it would
    be the last 3 digits under one of the 3 spokes. If it's factory it will show #170 on a
    spoke.

    One has to remember, 1860 & 70'S jewelers in the US worked on English and American
    watches.

    Keith R...

    m59c (1000x746).jpg
     
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  34. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Now if the balance wheel is of English origins, I have to replace the dial anyway.

    English style, pic #2.

    Keith R...

    m59 (1000x746).jpg 103_0698 (800x600).jpg
     
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  35. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    That´s the best photograph this year Keith were you offering the dog a tit-bit or did you glue back his ears :rolleyes: Can you PM me with you VR watches, please. The sun is shinning here, but we are all still worried-keep fit,

    Allan.
     
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  36. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I must admit Allan, the mutt is part Lab and part Pit Bull. From neck up, she's
    Pit.

    Here is my one and only VR Allan. Movement and case both VR and 1834.

    Name on plate, WH Davies (retailer I think).

    Keith R...

    100_3235 (800x600).jpg 100_5922 (1000x750).jpg Wellington (640x479).jpg 103_9043 (800x600).jpg 103_9039 (800x600) (640x480).jpg 100_5926 (1000x750).jpg
     
  37. PapaLouies

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    Who is the case maker. PL
     
  38. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Vale & Rotherham PL-Sponsors mark first used in 1822, registered in Birmingham, later in London and Chester. Try Rotherham & Sons by David Boettcher on the net. Page 7.
     
  39. Allan C. Purcell

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    Keith is that 391 or 501?

    57-16.jpg Nice watch, though strange how they kept using the Verge escapement, you would think by then it would at least be Massey.


    IMG_7288.JPG Nothing like a quick shower. Neil´s a water rat.

    Allan.
     
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  40. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    PL, I'll lookup the Dubree verge 1820 case maker tomorrow, in daylight.

    Allan, it's 501. The coon hound and the lab are the water rats on this
    end.

    Keith R...
     
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  41. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    I was asking about the Howard case.
    PL
     
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  42. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Nov 27, 2012
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    It is a second generation case PL by GW Ladd.

    Keith R...

    100_3737 (600x800).jpg
     
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  43. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Nov 27, 2012
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    Well, she's home and ticking away. Pic #2 was before I wound it up.

    Size comparison.

    Keith R...

    m59 (1000x746).jpg 100_5940 (1000x750).jpg
     
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  44. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Nov 27, 2012
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    Post #743, the watch ran the length of the chain but lost about 10 minutes. I'll send it to Rob and
    evaluate the movement. I've been waiting to send in an old AT&Co for service, so now have two
    for a shipment.

    On my other front, a good friend just picked up a Derrihouse & Carter London. This one a 50MM
    pair case I timed at +2 minutes in 24 hrs.

    Keith R...

    dw7 (650x800).jpg dw11 (800x533).jpg DW6 (500x500).jpg dw10 (800x533).jpg
     
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  45. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #745 Keith R..., May 30, 2020
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
    OOPS, I'm so used to my fusee's, there's no chain on a going barrel.

    It ran 30 hours (post #743).

    Awesome also to watch the launch!

    Keith R...
     
  46. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

    Feb 15, 2018
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    I tried but lightning hit nearby and my power went out at -1.
    Dan
     
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  47. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Well, could not resist...............another London cylinder (runs).

    Keith R...
     
  48. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    After 10 years, I finally found an outer case to fit my pair case Barwise cylinder
    from 1805, (cased in 1834 pair cases). I purchased it in an inner case from 1834
    and I timed it to plus 1 minute, in 24 hours. The watch works and keeps time in
    all positions.

    I also have been telling you guys about my latest black Lab. She dug up what I
    believe are musket shot. I'm unsure of which period they belong to. Either 1775
    or 1860 and I hope to get Clint to have a look. They are not ball bearings. She
    digs near the pond.

    Keith R...

    100_5947 (1000x750).jpg 100_5955 (1000x750).jpg Barwise (900x1200).jpg Barwise 2 (900x1200).jpg Barwise 3 (1200x900).jpg barwise5 (1200x900).jpg 100_5964 (1000x750).jpg 100_6114 (800x600).jpg
     
  49. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Keith,
    The Barwise is in the news this week, a nice chap in the UK who is a great fan of Barwise watches, sent me twelve numbers I did not have. So along with yours, there is something to look at. I have attached the new file hear, so you are the first to see it.

    Best.

    Allan.

    PS. Tell Ray he needs to return.
     

    Attached Files:

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  50. Andrew Wilde

    Andrew Wilde Registered User
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    Feb 18, 2020
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    These three movements arrived from the US a few days ago; won quite reasonably on eBay, all from the same seller. All have faults,and are rather dirty but they have dials in various states, dustcaps, no hands, and arrived fully wound. After some gentle persuasion, they have each run to the end of the chain (they won't be wound again until stripped and cleaned). Apart from the jewelling, they each had something that attracted me:

    The Randle has a Red Lion St address on the movement, and in red on the dial. Nowhere more iconic for the London watchmaking trade.

    The Beesley has a musical score on the balance cock - I have a few of these

    The S.I. Tobias - well, it's a Tobias and as close as I'm likely to come to owning one on my collecting budget! I like Liverpool Runners too.

    The latter two are engraved Patent but look to be STRs.

    All dustcaps are initialled, as pictured; J.B on the Beesley, TC on the Randle, and unclear on the Tobias but possibly TR

    If anyone can suggest dates, I'd be grateful.

    IMG_3902.jpg IMG_3903.jpg IMG_3904.jpg IMG_3905.jpg IMG_3906.jpg
     
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