Odd lot thread

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Keith R..., Dec 6, 2018.

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  1. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    PS.........Several friends mentioned already own or have owned
    the Going Barrels I mentioned in post #450. But it never hurts to have
    the earliest one available, of either.;)

    PS 2....The watch below restored and cased by Rob C.......Perfect
    timing and loud as a Rack lever........but love it!!

    Keith R...

    103_6267 (800x600).jpg 103_6273 (800x600).jpg
     
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  2. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    There's a post out there now, if you collect American Colonial Federal (verges)
    and late Federal (levers). He was an interesting jeweler out of Nebraska of all
    places. You can see the Jewelers name CS Raymond on the key, Omaha, Neb.
    The watch, a verge he sold out of his shop, this one, 1820 and a perfect time
    keeper. No, not converted.......... a Verge.

    Keith R...

    jj625 (800x768).jpg jj626 (800x583).jpg
     
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  3. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I'm tinkering with a 15J Private Label Swiss watch. Now this one's a favorite at 16 size
    and nail set. She runs great and keeps good time in a 24 hour run, all positions including
    one's pocket.

    I would place it around 1880 and it sports the gold crown with gold hinges. I grabbed it cheap
    and it's always been a good watch. Although I have hunter cased watches, I prefer original
    side winders.

    Keith R...

    swissindy2 (725x725) - Copy.jpg 100_5394 (1200x900).jpg 100_5396 (1200x900).jpg 103_8846 (800x600).jpg 100_3352 (800x600).jpg
     
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  4. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Today's timing run of my 1842 Josh Johnson 19J Runner, is now complete.
    It's even with my serviced Howard III. That's a total of 6 adjustments of the
    Bosley reg. This will make it plus about 1 min per day.

    Keith R...

    100_3722 (800x600).jpg 5477 (500x375).jpg 103_8192 (800x600).jpg
     
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  5. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #455 Keith R..., Aug 28, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
    Beware of UK sellers shipping a 1/2" thick lever in a 1/2" thick box. It's called
    Physics!!!

    Needless to say, the open face watch now needs a crystal.

    Thanks to John Matthews, case maker Thomas Holliday and watch maker
    is Mark Stevens registered 1856. I'm with John, it's 13 jewels. With a solid
    gold balance wheel, it was not a railway watch for the American market.
    Case hallmark is 1860.

    Keith R...

    rail (795x1049).jpg rail3 (892x992).jpg
     
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  6. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    We lost my best friend over the holidays.

    We pray for their families.

    Keith R...

    cornc (800x800).jpg
     
  7. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Just off the phone with Ray, he's doing fine btw.

    Today I got in #10596 London Tremont. So this gives me 2 London Tremont's,
    1 American Tremont and one Melrose all serviced by Rob C of TN.

    Keith R...
     
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  8. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #458 Keith R..., Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
    Just in case Ray or other reads this, my phone is out of service..............hopefully to be fixed soon.

    Just fixed.............loose plug in by Satellite provider.

    Keith R...

    103_0459 (800x600).jpg 100_3971 (1024x768).jpg 100_2359 (800x600) (2).jpg
     
  9. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    The past two I received from the U.K. were in ENVELOPES! There was light cardboard wrapped around them and just slid into a yellow paper padded envelope. Thankfully both made it safe.
    There was one other that was sent in the same manner, and was stolen from the padded envelope, which arrived empty.

    Definitely beware! Learning the hard way was no fun.
     
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  10. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #460 Keith R..., Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
    Thanks Rick..................one has to verify shipping practices prior to a bid on any
    new seller, (here or overseas).

    Here's another issue to watch for. Tonight I'm running a Verge I worked on and
    re-timed it. I'm fairly certain it's about 1810 with a Tompion reg. I plucked it from
    the third verge display, but the outer case is a spare Thomas Spicer case. It's
    running perfect in all positions and now keeping perfect time, I'm just unsure
    who made it until I open the inner case and flip it out. When done, I'll document
    it and store it. I got busy and failed to document it when I adjusted it and placed
    it in the display.

    Note, when I say spare, I removed it off a dead Charles Stone verge from 1817
    and it had the Spicer outer case with no hallmark. Third pic is an 1811 Champion
    verge.

    Keith R...

    100_5426 (1200x900).jpg 100_5432 (1200x900).jpg 103_7460 (800x600).jpg
     
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  11. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #461 Keith R..., Sep 13, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
    I re-started the unnamed verge above, so I'll check it later.

    I'm switching out the carries.............Shutting down my 1836 9 jewel lever, for my Nickel
    15J Marion. The English lever is 16 size (perfect) and the Marion is in a 2.5 ounce silver
    case and feels like a 16 size. So to carry one, I vote for a 16 size watch. I'll run the Going
    barrels for longer periods, as I have spare Marion parts.

    Keith R...

    100_5433 (1200x900).jpg 100_5100 (1600x1200).jpg 100_4541 (1600x1200).jpg 100_3210 (800x600).jpg 103_0338 (800x600).jpg
     
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  12. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #462 Keith R..., Sep 28, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019
    I've been cruising a bit this season. Here's an 1831 verge (HM inner case 1831),
    outer case a replacement. It has a Bosley regulator and runs/times in all positions.
    This one has been cleaned and serviced.

    Now this one is London. Jas Plimpton.

    Verges this collection --1763, 1790, 1796, 1802, 1803, 1805, 1811, 1820, 1820, 1831,
    1834.

    Keith R...

    100_5447 (1200x900).jpg vg7 (976x1200).jpg vg8 (1192x958).jpg vg6 (1200x1111).jpg
     
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  13. Chris Radek

    Chris Radek Registered User
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    Wow, the crystal shows that watch was well loved and well used. It's no surprise it needed a new outer case. It's lovely.
     
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  14. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Thanks team!!

    This is another great time keeper..............

    1790 (Grant), 1802, 1811, 1820, 1831 & 1834 (my Verge time keepers).

    Gotta lov'm.

    Keith R...

    100_4315 (1600x1200).jpg
     
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  15. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #465 Keith R..., Sep 30, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
    For the first time I'm running a verge through day 3. I will send it to the display soon.

    It's just a pleasure to run a serviced verge.

    Note, I prefer to regulate a Tompion regulator ................my favorite included.
    From Australia, ca 1802. It's housed in a John Fairey shop consular case.

    Keith R...

    100_5447 (1200x900).jpg 100_4120 (1024x768).jpg 100_4083 (1024x768).jpg
     
  16. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    We need MI Tobias cases (44mm).

    Keith R...

    JJ160 (846x825).jpg JJ160B (865x772).jpg JJ160A (872x849).jpg
     
  17. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    New purchase in with case HM for 1815. I had a few friends peek at it and
    looks to be an early Massey or an early table roller. I''ll get a friend to use his
    zoom camera and give us a view. Later in the weekend.

    It's ticking away and has a fresh service. Pic beside my Marion 18 size 15J.

    Keith R...

    100_5463 (1200x900).jpg 100_5453 (1200x900).jpg pinn3 (864x832).jpg pinn4 (864x1001).jpg pinn2 (864x835).jpg
     
  18. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Just thinking out loud............(my buddy Ray).

    Keith R...

    jj410 (598x600).jpg
     
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  19. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I have run the 17J for 30 plus hours and it has completed a timed test, even with Satellite time.

    So it certainly times well. I think I'll ask the seller, "who serviced" it. So back to the 19J
    Josh Johnson.

    ***Note, Johnson dial I believe is a replacement dial (white and not cream).

    Keith R...

    100_5489 (1200x900).jpg
     
  20. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Although I've met all my watch goals, I'm still on the hunt for an old
    early English chronometer. Considering how much they cost, I'm saving
    up, in case the right one comes along.

    I sold a Swiss gold watch to one of my daughters acquaintances in NC in
    mid August and there are a few Verges I can let go of. Most in Silver I have
    looked at from about 1820, are about $2500 to 3K. I'm looking for one around
    52MM and for now, waiting on the season to finish.

    I have a Swiss chrono. gold(1870) and an English about 1872 (Silver). I
    have been eyeing Penny's store for their watches. I'll keep my eyes and
    ears open. I'm happy with my Sunday watches, so I have enough gold ones
    to worry about.

    So perhaps I can still make the December target for a silver consular or pair
    cased 1820's English chronometer watch.

    Keith R...

    100_3604 (800x600).jpg 100_3608 (800x600).jpg CHRONO1 (800x625).jpg
     
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  21. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #471 Keith R..., Oct 31, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
    "One offs"............I'm guilty of being to generic in this thread, But if you get bored,
    type in the archives, the following:

    Josh Johnson 87 Brownlow Hill
    Lawrance Rack lever
    John Jackson Rack lever
    Wathen Rack lever
    Savage II Pin lever
    Thomas Yates slow beat, (Graham would argue, not a one off, he's on the mark, most
    of the time)!!

    Keith R...

    100_1590 (800x600).jpg
     
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  22. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    This,my "one off John Jackson" 14J rack lever from the 1820's.

    Note, case is a custom fit from the 1860's. Also note viper on
    the balance cock. Restored by Watch Repair Inc. NY,NY.

    Keith R...

    100_3383 (800x600) - Copy.jpg 100_3387 (800x600).jpg jj580 (500x375).jpg jj573 (500x375).jpg
     
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  23. Chris Radek

    Chris Radek Registered User
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    What an interesting second hand!
     
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  24. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Thanks Chris! The original.

    Keith R...

    jj585 (500x375).jpg
     
  25. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Allan reminded me I've yet to finalize post #467 and he's correct. The case
    appears to be Chester 1837 with no crown post 1822.

    The Pinnington movement appears to date to 1818. So a re-case is certainly
    apparent and appropriate. The movement is serviced and runs even with SAT
    time, so I'm happy with my $300 buy, as it runs in all positions. I have fallen
    behind a bit, but my 8 year old grand daughter has kept up with her home work.

    Watch is 53MM with a cream dial.

    Keith R...

    pinn1 (864x1180).jpg pinn2 (864x835) - Copy.jpg pinn3 (864x832).jpg pinn4 (864x1001).jpg
     
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  26. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Pinnington................I think the spelling is.

    Keith R...
     
  27. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Keith the crown was discontinued in this year 1822 - but it was in 1837 that the leopard's head was discontinued - hence not present here. Case maker [TC] = Thomas Cubbin, Hockley, Birmingham. Loomes - Thomas Pinnington, Liverpool 1810-1848.

    John
     
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  28. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #478 Keith R..., Nov 8, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
    John, movement is ca 1818 but we think the case date is 1837 (worn and recased).

    Thanks............Keith R...

    post #475, pic 3.

    PS to all, Ray is back in the hospital and am waiting word since yesterday
    morning. Possible surgery. I'll update when I hear.
     
  29. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I just got the call from Ray, no surgery and he's passed the blockage.

    So Ray (Omexa) has many friends on both sides of our board and
    he hopes to be back home Monday, according to his Doctors.

    Hope to hear from him at checkout.

    Keith R...

    JWB4 (1325x1600).jpg JWB3 (1600x1200).jpg
     
  30. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Keith - please extend best wishes to Ray next time you speak to him.

    John
     
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  31. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I told Ray, that John M., Graham & Allan send their best wishes. He says thanks (especially
    after they just yanked a nose tube). He should be home this evening, his latest update.

    Showing my Savage II pin lever, 1822.

    Keith R...

    100_1610 (800x600).jpg 100_1738 (800x600) - Copy.jpg 100_1618 (800x600).jpg
     
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  32. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Keith that's good news about Ray, please pass on our good wishes. That two-pin escapement on the above creates a problem with just the name "DEAN" I took a look at Loomes for Deans in London.

    Dean, Thomas, /Cripplegate) 1817-19

    Dean, Thomas, /Dempsey Street) c.1850?

    Dean, Thomas, (St. Swithin´s Lane) CC. 1819-44

    The first one looks good, (I believe Savage left for Canada c1820) but all three could be the same man. Novicetimekeeper could help you with the streets around "Cheapside" and "Old Jenney".

    Allan
     
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  33. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #483 Allan C. Purcell, Nov 10, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
    Google Maps

    Or you could play with this, just put the addresses in at the top left. Don´t put in Dempsey Street, it is no longer there, though it will show Dempsey Street in Australia. Ray will know were it is.:cool:

    Allan.
     
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  34. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #484 Keith R..., Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
    Thanks Allan. I've discovered a like example for Thomas Dean 2xxx with David Penney
    in a gilt gold case. It looks like a duplicate to mine on the movement. There's no better
    source then Mr. Penney.

    Thanks for the backup data Allan. **Cap is for John's records. IS initials I think and
    date about 1820 with case HM 1822. My example is 14J (#3871) and David's looks
    to be a 11J (#2xxx). *He calls his CA 1815.

    ***Watch is at the bank, I'll dig up case maker info.

    Keith R...

    100_1712 (800x600).jpg 100_1740 (800x600).jpg 100_1770 (800x600).jpg
     
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  35. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    From DP's description of Dean #2832 we have ...

    Thomas Dean working from 1810, then at 1 Old Jewry, London, moving to Swithin's Lane in 1820, recorded as a "watch finisher'' in an 1821 Directory.

    I don't have a London directory for the period 1809 - 1817. In the 1803 & 1808 directories I have, there is a Thomas Dean, Goldsmith and Jeweller, listed at 80, Minories which is further out to the east of Old Jewry. He is not listed in an 1818 directory, which lists all the occupants in Old Jewry and St Swithins. He is not listed in the watch section of Pigots 1822 & 1823 directories.

    So that would mean on the basis of David's references your watch (#3871) is likely to be ~1818.

    Cap maker [IS] likely to be John Shepherd 15 Great Sutton Street, London listed in 1818 &1822/3.

    John
     
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  36. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #486 Allan C. Purcell, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019

    John, Try to get a copy of the1808 "Post Office Annual Directory" it used to be on the net, and I copied it and printed it, was also worth the extra work, to sleave it and file it. 1808, Dean Thomas Goldsmith and jeweller, 80, Minories. There are many Dean watchmakers, but very few in London. (That helps). Plus thanks for Old Jwery I could not read it correctly from Keiths photograph and thought it said Jenney. Old Jewry is just off the Cheapside. The Minories Thomas Dean is not in Loomes, so there is some room for more research, though I think we are very close. (The Minories are by the Tower Bridge, and you can get a great beer there Keith at the Dicken´s Inn). Allan

    PS: There is also a Dean Joseph at 9, Strand, he was a Gold and Silver Lace-man.


    c-57.JPG
     
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  37. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    John
     
  38. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    John Matthews said:
    In the 1803 & 1808 directories I have,

    You did not say Post Office.

    Allan.
     
  39. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Thanks John and Allan. I'm taking John's last discussion on Penney's write up. I
    always tread carefully from DP's site, to keep Martin at bay (our other team member).
    Ref. post #485.

    PS..........Ray's on to one and I'll describe it when he snags it.

    Thanks team............Keith R...
     
  40. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Here's one that got me thinking from a post above us............ It's an 1834 17J Lever. I found other
    dated English cased examples and dated the movement (7). I am a firm believer that many of these
    English movements were cased and maintained through the late 1800's. Given it's accuracy in all
    positions after it's last service, it would not surprise me to one day have a flavor for the majority
    of the carried watches through 1865, including many of these 1830's lever.

    It runs as good as my Lewis Samuel, CA 1832. On my American levers, they are all 15J., 1859-1865.
    I guess I'm a chain guy. The case is WAR & Co. Eagle (rubbed). Dial cleaning in process.

    Keith R...

    103_0811 (800x600).jpg 103_0817 (800x600) - Copy.jpg 103_0829 (800x600) - Copy.jpg 103_0821 (800x600).jpg
     
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  41. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Yes seen this before, this week, I still think a photograph that we can enlarge of the marks on the case would help. The name on the watch Taylor & Co. is of little help, did you take a look at the Liverpool Museum, it's not in Loomes. They should have a separate book for the Taylor´s. That cartouche on the back makes me think it's later, and the cock, though like I said before Keith some better photographs would help, those above do not tell us much? Allan
     
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  42. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #492 Keith R..., Nov 12, 2019 at 4:46 PM
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019 at 5:44 PM
    Lot's bug me on this one Allan. Note, it's under-sprung, lacks crows feet on
    the scale and nothing on the cock. I'll try and catch some case shots when our
    sun comes back out, (definitely an American case) The case certainly looks
    pre-1840.

    I have several re-cased movements and think the best way is to Ask first.

    Thanks for feedback Allan.

    I fired up the Taylor & Co., running perfect as I type.

    Shown below, a 17J ES Yates & Co. in an 1860's case (re-case).
    My guess is 1832. SN# 19277. Note, Taylor & Co. above has movement
    number # 2771 in front Hunter case lid, shown in photo reflection. When
    I look Yates up, I get 1855. Case is a HM for 1860. Now cock looks much
    earlier.

    Keith R...

    100_3725 (1200x1600).jpg 100_1157 (800x600).jpg
     
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  43. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I suspect the Yates watch movement in post #492 lost it's Gold case and was
    re-cased to a "period close" silver case. On can see minute hand damage.

    Back to the grind for the hunt..............Keith R...
     
  44. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Keith am I right in saying you have Dr Kemps two books? 0n page 67 "The Fusee Lever Watch." he says, " His slow beat watches were manufactured and usually cased by Samuel Quilliam (formerly Townley & Quilliam) of Liverpool, stamped Q. or S.Q. and often given a Quilliam serial number as well as carrying the Yates movement number. The rough movements were usually stamped W.B.- William Brown of Prescot. Allan
     
  45. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Keith your watch was retailed, possibly finished, by Ellis & Samuel Yates & Co. who operated in Liverpool from ~1830 through to the middle of the 1860's

    John
     
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  46. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #496 Keith R..., Nov 16, 2019 at 5:28 AM
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019 at 5:35 AM
    Solves it for me John, thanks!!

    My guess is movement, from the 1830's in an 1860 case. So in their scramble to
    case it, they went to the latter end of the firm..

    Keith R...

    Allan, thanks and you will find my Yates slow beat on post #471, John Id's the
    ES Yates.
     
  47. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    John is quite correct to tell you the watch was sold by Yates, it was Yates own idea to make slow beat watches, though they never finished the watches, they came ready for sale. Yates shop was in Preston, and there are no records saying watchmaking was done in Preston. Quilliam and others finished the watches, and also cased them, all Yates had to do was sell them, I think you know the problems he had there. Today they are a novelty, try walking around with yours and you will see what I mean.

    n-27.JPG n-28.JPG Another re-cased Yates slow beat watch.
     
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  48. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #498 Keith R..., Nov 16, 2019 at 1:10 PM
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019 at 1:28 PM
    My Elias Samuel Yates: It is a 17J lever, SN# 19277. I would date it to 1835 in an 1860
    HM case.

    My watch in post #471 is a Slow Beat signed by Thomas Yates and made by Sam Q. as
    well as the case. I think I did a separate thread for my Yates Slow Beater.

    **Allan and all who want to see the Yates slow beat, search "Thomas Yates Slow Beat watch",
    thread by me, for my 11J example.

    Keith R...

    yates (800x769).jpg yates4 (800x767).jpg 100_1157 (800x600).jpg 100_1164 (800x600).jpg 100_1189 (800x600).jpg 100_3725 (1200x1600).jpg
     
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