Odd lot thread

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Keith R..., Dec 6, 2018.

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  1. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I need a thread just to put stuff in that I buy, that heads to the China cabinet.
    Now only John M. knows what hits my China cabinet - (watch cabinet).

    Now here's what will show up in this thread. An old banged up, rescued watch
    from a scrapper, or dinged up case, but runs. They all must run or they don't
    hit this thread. Maybe a movement or two, if they help fellow collectors.

    I don't have to do much typing with this one and word searches won't be
    diverted to this thread, because most of you can read.

    Note, seller approved photos, (watch is on the plane)!
    Bargain if you ask me!

    Keith R...

    cornc (800x800).jpg corna (800x800).jpg cornd (800x800).jpg
     
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  2. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    The good news about this old watch is, it's been seller refurbished, keeps
    great time and has a dial only a mother could love. I have communicated
    with several of you over the months that dial donations are not charitable
    contributions. But you can give it a shot.................

    Keith R...
     
  3. Tim Fitzgerald

    Tim Fitzgerald Registered User
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    I like it, even if it is in the china cabinet! Perhaps some day I will need more than the drawer,
    that I store my collection. I love the ones I have & am proud to show them to friends.
    Thanks My friend
     
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  4. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Thank you Tim as always. I can't recall the Verge, but I can recall the dial, with as many
    cracks if not more, then shown on the Barraud dial above. It's where the Verge addiction
    first started for me. The old Verge was on Oliver's web site.

    I look forward to a visit of his new site.

    Keith R...
     
  5. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #5 Keith R..., Dec 7, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
    I'll have to wait to post the photos to refresh my memory. This one is
    ES Yates & Co. hallmarked for 1860. It's all original, but someone wrapped
    the minute hand in a fit of rage. I straightened out enough to tell time, but
    it was purchased already serviced (it's slated for Carignan Watch Co when
    the time comes, just see the hands they made for L Lawrance Rack lever).
    Case number #19277 same as movement. Watch size 16, 52MM.

    This ES Yates is 17J conventional train. I felt bad for the seller, I got it
    for cheap. He was just misinformed, it was not his fathers swiss watch.
    It had a fresh service tag about one year old. He must have gone suddenly.
    Now in normal light that's a perfectly gold balance wheel. I put the cap
    in here for my buddy John M., it has the SN# of the watch in it.

    This will be a fun thread. I've also got a 14K hunter from 1834. One of my
    local friends who builds these pine or cedar displays, must have been
    surfing the either. He brought an empty display and I made room for a
    4th such wooden, glass topped, hinged box about 24" x 30".

    I have some running and timing verges to put in this thread also. Maybe
    my buddy Ray will also add a few. Now if there's any questions do it per
    watch, we could wind up with a about a dozen watches in this thread.

    Keith R...

    yates (800x769).jpg 100_1157 (800x600).jpg 100_1160 (800x600).jpg 100_1164 (800x600).jpg yates4 (800x767).jpg
     
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  6. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Hi Keith - thanks for posting the cap ..

    I have never seen this before ..

    upload_2018-12-7_15-40-36.png

    It appear to be to reduce the gap between the cap and winding head of the fusee arbor, it looks like an 'original modification' - be interested in the opinion of others ...

    John
     
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  7. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #7 Keith R..., Dec 8, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
    This is probably a short story here. This one popped up on the radar a couple of
    years ago and it's a re-case. Now it also needs the case button fixed to open the
    case back, for access to wind this puppy up. So I open the bezl and flip the dust
    cap/movement over and wind, flip the movement back and close the bezel. When
    the time comes, I'll send it for service and case work.

    The best I have come up with is, it's either a good fake of an MI Tobias, or it is a late
    MI Tobias of about 1861. Either way, it keeps perfect time. It is a 16 size, but about 3/4"
    thick, (heavy biscuit). I bought it for just over a $100 and already serviced. I don't run it
    often, but when I do, it's spot on and times within 30 seconds a day, probably better,
    but I don't brag. The case is English and sterling of course, HM 1877. (Issue, no crows
    feet).

    EDIT, to the admins, the act of shifting is not a curse word.

    Keith R...

    103_0101 (800x600) (2).jpg 103_0107 (800x600) (2).jpg MIT6 (800x662) - Copy.jpg mit2 (800x729).jpg
     
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  8. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    This Augusta Saltzman probably lost it's solid gold case, some time after about 1875.
    It's in a second generation American case, marked coin and I must admit, a great fit.
    This one is 15 jewels and keeps perfect time, every time.

    This one's been serviced, but it's back to Carignan, as they do great dial work. Note the
    problem at 2 oclock. Also, the hands are original, but who can see them. Maybe some
    big old fat, gold English hands would work.

    The patent date for this lever is 1859. I would date this early serial number to 1860.

    Keith R...

    100_2631 (800x600).jpg 100_2635 (800x600).jpg 100_2639 (600x800).jpg 100_2658 (800x600) - Copy.jpg
     
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  9. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I now have the week off for a bit. I would like to thank my "Vulture partner", Ray (Omexa)
    from the Dwerrihouse, to my latest.

    There's an Arnold & Dent in my future.

    Keith R...
     
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  10. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Well the Barraud is home in all it's glory. Now once I wound it up the wind indicator
    went to zero (up). This is my second with a wind indicator (third, one on the way).
    This one is fully an 18 size watch.

    I would say 2/9992 is circa 1875. Not bad looking for a re-case, of course that gold
    case would have been a stunner!

    Keith R...

    100_3703 (800x600).jpg 100_3707 (800x600).jpg 100_3712 (800x600).jpg 100_3710 (800x600).jpg
     
  11. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #11 Keith R..., Dec 19, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
    The Barraud is actually filling a gap, that gap being the 1870's. I have one coming in
    all original from the late 1880's, some time this week. I have the 1890's covered, but
    it still needs service (it's waiting behind several verges, a cylinder, a couple of 1840's
    conventional levers, a Liverpool runner 1840). I'm sure it looks as if I'm all over the board,
    but there's methods to my madness.

    This will extend me from 1763 to 1892 (1900 for all practical purposes English).
    The American collection I'm from 1859 to 1887.

    Here's an 1892 hallmarked 17J, pending service (it runs good). It's close to an 18 size
    and all original. It's my one and only Gothic Roman dial. Note, split compensated
    balance wheel. Yes, a fusee chain and all.

    Keith R...

    100_1069 (800x600).jpg Eng5 (800x698) - Copy.jpg Eng3 (800x708).jpg
     
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  12. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #12 Keith R..., Dec 20, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
    I've been sick with a cold, but I'm slowly getting better. When I begin to feel most human,
    I tend to hit my bids first, then the NAWCC/European section.

    When I hit the internet I have it programmed for Google. There was Google this morning,
    complete with birthday candles and I thought, must be Google's birthday, then I looked at
    the calendar...............It's my birthday today!

    Just a morning observation. I wonder if I should unplug the Browser when not in use.;)

    Your fellow collector and friend. Wathen 14J Rack lever.

    Keith R...

    100_2660 (800x600).jpg
     
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  13. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Keith - Happy Birthday :Party: :)

    But please don't spend all your birthday cash on European watches, leaving nought left for your fellow collectors ....

    Hope you have a great day

    John
     
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  14. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Keith, you really should tell Denis that you would like to see my pieces finished almost as much as your own. :D
     
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  15. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Keith - Happy Birthday :Party: :)
    A bit late.
     
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  16. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #16 Keith R..., Dec 20, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
    Thanks guys for all the birthday wishes and free advice!!

    Here's one that caught my eye one night as I had already been doing research on Lewis Samuel.
    In that very thread was a Roscoe watch a seller had that I popped the opening bid on, which was
    low in my opinion. He had correctly listed the hallmarks of the case, but I informed him Roscoe
    was a maker back in the 1840's, the seller ended his sale and gave me the bill (pretty cheap, I did
    not turn it down). So it's another old Liverpool watch that wore it's case out.

    Here is a 17J Rob Roscoe Liverpool runner, with a gold dial and silver case at 52MM. It's another
    just a matter of when, do I service it (it runs good). It was the dial and hands I loved for $100.

    Keith R...

    100_3095 (800x600).jpg 100_3090 (800x600).jpg 100_3086 (800x600).jpg 100_2321 (800x600) - Copy.jpg 100_2818 (800x600) (2).jpg
     
  17. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #17 Keith R..., Dec 21, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
    There's several reasons I've held this one back from Denis (Carignan Watch Co.).

    1. It is missing it's outer case and something is odd about the inner case, it's hallmark
    is 1834.
    2. I bought this one as a novice on English watches, the case has a hallmark date, but
    nothing else. I suspect it's some type of shop case. I have yet to be able to acquire
    an outer case in the 1830's that would fit right. I bought this because of the name
    (Barwise). I now have a cylinder in the collection that keeps "perfect" time. I found
    one other Barwise in this serial number range, and it's hallmark is for 1802. If I get
    them to do it, I'd have them put a sliding door over the key wind hole.

    PS, Still a big novice, but I'm definitely a, "work in progress".

    Keith R...

    100_1217 (800x600).jpg 100_1220 (800x600).jpg 100_1229 (800x600).jpg
     
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  18. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    This one's a favorite and I carry it often. When the time comes I'll get
    it serviced.

    But I'd be more apt to call it a real watch, if I can get the dial corrected and
    it's period correct (like the 1830's). Richard Ward, London 11J.

    Keith R...

    100_3521 (800x600).jpg
     
  19. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Loose movement I liked for $30 USD that runs, 44.5MM. It has a plain white 3 footed dial.
    It has a dust cap. It has a fusee, winds counter clockwise and cock foot says 10 holes
    jeweled. That's my first leaping deer on a cock.

    Keith R...

    100_3718 (800x600).jpg
     
  20. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    This is probably the safest place I can post this and get my thought out here. I did not
    want to post as a new thread, because lighting can affect dial appearance. Also, dials
    could be replacements.

    Here's what I'm looking at. In hand, many of my Liverpool watches, the dials appear to
    be cream colored, while many, if not most of my London dials are White. If you guys
    would think about this, see if I've hit on anything. I will show several examples. Might
    not be the best, but left to right, the first two are Liverpool (Davenport 1867 and Yeoman
    1852), the second two are London (Alex Purvis 1820 and J Radges 1881).

    I'm just asking collectors to take a look in their collections and see if you come up with
    London White dials and Liverpool Cream colored dials. Just an observation.


    Keith R...

    100_1971 (800x600).jpg 100_2098 (800x600).jpg 100_3036 (800x600).jpg 100_3604 (800x600).jpg
     
  21. Tim Fitzgerald

    Tim Fitzgerald Registered User
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    Keith
    Those are some wonderful machines you've got there.
    Tim Fitz
     
  22. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Thank you TFitz!!

    Tim lives in the old home state I completed high school in, (Coastal NC).

    Ray, I sent you an email, but I'd say you will be waking in about 5 hours, while I'm laying down
    and taking in O2. Please go easy on the Kanga's while I'm snoozing. I sent you an email. I'll need
    an outer case circa 1806 ish out of London, I'll check the China cabinet.

    Keith R...
     
  23. Rich Newman

    Rich Newman Chair
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    Its also on this very high quality 21 jewel Liverpool movement from 1853-54 signed Stanford Hovey, Manchester, New Hampshire (silver case maker "RS", Ralph Samuel). I've not seen another until your post. I also think its purpose was to reduce the gap to the fusee arbor; an attempt to add a quality feature(?).

    Hovey 1.JPG Hovey 2.JPG Hovey 3.jpg Hovey 4.JPG
     
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  24. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    #24 John Matthews, Dec 27, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
    Rich - many thanks for posting this example - particularly with the cap maker (TW) stamp. I haven't seen this one before, although I have seen 'T.W' on a Coventry cap by Thomas Whittaker from 1875 and a much earlier Liverpool movement. The lack of the '.' probably means we should infer a different maker.

    John

    Edit I think I have identified the most likely candidate from the Liverpool Museum database


    Name Winstanley Thomas
    Date 1851 - 1853
    Town Liverpool
    Directory Street directory
    Street 1 3 Walker Street, Low Hill
    Town Liverpool
    Trade Watch cap maker

    Additional Information:

    Information St Nicholas (Liverpool) - married Margaret Sturdeys 23/2/1834. * St Davids (Liverpool) - Samuel baptised 14/10/1835. Mary Elizabeth baptised 15/10/1835. Amelia baptised 27/11/1836. * St Augustines (Liverpool) - Thomas Alexander baptised 25/7/1838. * St Pauls (Liverpool) - Elizabeth baptised 22/12/1839. * St Thomas (Liverpool) - Jesse baptised 8/11/1843. * St Chrysostom (Liverpool) - Frances baptised 9/5/1869. * 1851 census - watchmaker aged 33 of Walker Street. Margaret aged 36 + 5 - Amelia aged 14, Thomas aged 13, Betty aged 8, John aged 4 + Mary aged 1. * 1861 census - watchmaker aged 47 of 69 Boundary Place. Margaret aged 47 + 6 - Amelia aged 13, John aged 14, Margaret aged 11, Charlotte aged 10, Jessie aged 8 + Frances aged 5. * 1871 census - watchmaker aged 55 of 26 Brunel Street + 2 - daughter Amelia Griffin aged 28 (widow) + Frances aged 15. * 1881 census - watch cap maker aged 65 of 5 Phoebe Ann Street - wife not shown.
     
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  25. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    #25 gmorse, Dec 27, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
    Hi John,

    I haven't come across one of these caps with the added piece in the fusee arbor hole, but I'm a little puzzled by this being a separate part, because many caps have an integral pipe in this position, which could be made as close as desired to the arbor, like this example.

    DSCF2839.JPG

    However, I wonder if this small separate collar was intended to be the retainer for a thin leather washer, to provide a more certain seal? Just a thought!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  26. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Hi Graham,

    We need to ask Keith & Rich to inspect their fit against the cap for any clues - if the underside of the piece was recessed so as to take a washer, your suggestion would be 'proven'. However, without a recess, given the thickness of the cap in relation to using a screw to fix the piece, the washer would have to be very thin. I have checked a couple of my Liverpool 'windows' movements and the round portion of the fusee arbor terminates very very close to the 'window jewelling'. Given the inside of the cap is not in contact with the top plate, I think the piece is probably designed to 'fill the space' between the inside of the cap and the top of the arbor jewel, with the diameter of the hole matching that of the diameter of the arbor. The piece being fitted in the final stages of finishing.

    John
     
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  27. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Hi Graham

    I thought about this overnight (sad I know). If the washer was between the cap and the 'spacer', it would probably be positioned around the square portion of the arbor, being displaced and worn every time the key was used. I think this is unlikely.

    John
     
  28. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #28 Keith R..., Dec 28, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
    John, let me have a cup of coffee and I'll have a look. I think it just keeps the
    cap good and snug.

    Keith R...

    Edit for John, tight snug fit guys with cap locked in.

    PS, you guys need to post more, my name is hanging out there four of five times.

    100_3725 (600x800).jpg 100_3728 (800x600).jpg 100_3715 (800x600).jpg
     
  29. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Keith & John,

    Hmm, in that case, I still don't see why it should be fitted as a screwed on piece rather than being an integral part of the design, like the Mudge & Dutton example. They both end up functioning the same way after all. Perhaps the majority of cap makers felt the same way about it, since this type of pipe seems quite rare.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  30. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    #30 John Matthews, Dec 28, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
    Graham - this is not my impression of caps that I see and those in my collection. The vast majority (well over 95%) of caps that I have, simply have a plain drilled hole with no pipe. I don't have an example with the separate piece. I do have examples where the winding hole is reinforced by an annulus, which, at first sight looks like a pipe, but does not constrict the hole.

    The impression I have is that the pipes are more common on the higher quality, often London finished, examples - which are not well represented in my collection.

    A few questions ...

    Do any of the pipes or separate pieces fit so tightly that the end of the (correct) key cannot pass through the cap when it is removed from the movement?

    When a pipe is present, does it extend below the base of the cap, so that it is in close contact with the plate or cock (depending on the position of the fusee arbor?

    John

    EDIT - I have just found a good example of a pipe on a recent purchase. The pipe is a separate brass plug, which does not extend below the base of the cap. The cap, however, does fit closely to the plate so there would be no need for it to extend below. The key will pass through the pipe when the cap is off the movement. BUT the square end of the arbor has a slight taper so when the cap is in position, the key does not reach the end of the pipe.

    Having examined this example, it is clear that the work involved in fitting a pipe is considerable and the cap would have to be made bespoke, to a much higher tolerance that that of a 'standard' cap. I think the extra piece was an attempt to close the gap around the arbor at relatively low cost.
     
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  31. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    Yes, this is probably true; the example I showed is certainly representative of the very best London work.

    The actual hole at the bottom of the pipe is often smaller, (as in the M&D example), so that the key won't pass right through, and the pipe doesn't extend below the cap.

    Another approach to dust exclusion that I have occasionally seen is a small brass collar which fits over the winding square inside the pipe and closes the gap to some extent. In this type, the hole in the pipe clearly has to be large enough for the collar to pass through.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  32. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Graham & John, there's another cap like mine on a Runner in the Josh Johnson
    thread by PL, (his last post, see underside of cap).

    Keith R...
     
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  33. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Keith - many thanks.

    So just like waiting for a bus - you wait for hours and then three come in quick succession :)

    John
     
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  34. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I thought I'd share with you guys a second generation case on an E Howard series III
    from 1864. It was probably re-cased around 1890. Note, first key wind hole plugged
    by the American jeweler about 11 oclock (2nd pic).

    Keith R...

    5477 (500x375).jpg 100_3737 (600x800).jpg 100_3448 (800x600).jpg
     
  35. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Now I got myself a birthday present. I certainly appears English and the case is hallmarked
    for 1888, with case initials of TR, which I assume are for Thomas Russel & Sons. This one is
    an 11 jewel and movement number and case number are one in the same. I'm down here
    with it, as I don't consider it a significant watch, more that I liked the Up/down indicator on it.

    Today I am timing it and it's dead on the money so far. This one of course, winds counter
    clockwise and a bit hefty at 55MM and rather thick. The wind indicator appears to be fully
    functional. It appears the seconds bit hand is gold also which is a bit rare. Note, it has a dust
    cap, I just did not show it.

    Here are the photos.

    Keith R...

    UD (587x800).jpg UD1 (800x716).jpg UD2 (569x800).jpg
     
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  36. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    I have one Russell that I like a lot. I think Kullberg made the ebauche at least. David Penney said the up down was patented by Russell.
    back.jpg backmrk.jpg cuvette.jpg cuvettemrk.jpg dial.jpg front.jpg Mvt2.jpg
     
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  37. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Tom,

    It's certainly a 'curiosity' balance bridge characteristic of Kullberg, but I suspect the raw movement was from one of the best Prescot workshops, probably Joseph Preston who is known to have supplied this reverse fusee free-sprung caliper to Kullberg exclusively.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  38. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    The obvious difference is that Keith's example is a full plate fusee. I believe the patent to which Tom refers, relates to the later Russell 3/4 plate going barrel movements where he incorporated S J Morgan's patent and was the only manufacturer to do so.

    From David's site:
    "S J Morgan, PATENT No 20,134, October 1899. Winding indication for going barrel watches (much harder to achieve than with a fusee) incorporating differential gearing using a tangential pinion running within a slot in the pillar plate"

    John
     
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  39. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Thanks to Tom for showing his 1/2 chronometer, (Ray educated me).

    I was fortunate enough to come across an Oliver Gerrish in a hallmarked 1850
    Ralph Samuels case. I bought it as a non runner, but Carignan had to rebuild half
    the escape wheel. I held off buying one in an American case, as I just had a battle
    over the American gold Josh Johnson case with no hallmarks (false hallmarks).

    Keith R...

    100_0919 (800x600).jpg 100_0930 (800x600).jpg 103_0265 (800x600).jpg Oliver (450x459).jpg
     
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  40. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #40 Keith R..., Jan 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
    I have wound up with about 4 Thomas Carpenter pair cases. Here's one of my few non runners.
    I try and buy them running, so I can say this for the other 99%. Considering I already have two
    calendar verges, should I desire, I could drop the calendar function and find it a dial along with
    a decent bow.

    One can see the crud on the wheel, but for the price, I was betting on the cases as much as the
    watch maker. I have both Micheal Issac and Morris (on levers). This is my first Tobias Verge.

    Circa 1800. Or, just reuse this dial as is.............thoughts??

    Note, outer case diameter 60MM. I had done research back when I grabbed it, at a low
    buy it now price.

    Keith R...

    jj714 (800x699).jpg jj713 (531x800).jpg jj715 (788x800).jpg jj722 (800x623).jpg jj721 (690x800).jpg
     
  41. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I'll tell on myself first.............Ray was laughing at how long into 2019 it would take me to
    get a 2019 watch, after I told him I was done.............Ray wins, it was 6 days flat.

    Keith R...

    drw (800x600).jpg
     
  42. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I first started collecting model 1857's on the American side. Third pic
    is in for service.

    Keith R...

    100_1145 (800x600).jpg 100_1339 (800x600).jpg 100_3658 (800x600).jpg 103_9136 (800x600).jpg
     
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  43. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    The night shift is about over. But I did send a turnover to Ray for latest
    "Find".

    Keith R...

    100_2444 (800x600).jpg
     
  44. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I wrote a few thoughts down after an internet visit last night. Most you guys know the Transition
    Tompion regulators did not start popping up, until about 1810 or so.

    I'm sure if I'm off, I'll get corrected.

    Just thought I'd share some thoughts from the field.

    Keith R...
     
  45. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Found this one in the watch cabinet. Darn thing runs, all positions. So I'll add
    it to the list after the Dwerrihouse & Carter.

    Charles Stone circa 1821, outer case is Thomas Spicer.

    Keith R...

    100_6080 (800x600).jpg 100_6071 (800x600).jpg 100_6076 (800x600).jpg
     
  46. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #46 Keith R..., Jan 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
    Every time Ray tells me about finding something at his place, I find myself rummaging
    in the cabinets. Before I put to many verges in the Que, I have to remember I have levers
    that need service. Now some of Ray's tickers are 100 years behind some of my levers.

    Tonight reminds me of hitting goals. One of these days I'll get caught up.

    Keith R...

    100_1461 (800x600).jpg 100_1465 (800x600) - Copy.jpg 100_1487 (800x600).jpg 100_1531 (800x600).jpg 100_1484 (800x600).jpg
     
  47. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #47 Keith R..., Jan 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
    John/Graham................here is the inner case on the Duplex I bought. I notice
    there's a crown and as stated V*R. Hopefully, I have an outer case for it here.

    Vale 1822?

    Keith R...

    dup1 (800x600).jpg CS4 (800x600).jpg
     
  48. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Hi Keith,

    The hallmarks are most likely to be Chester 1840. A late Vale and Rotherham case. V·R in an oval stamp was registered in Chester in the 1820s. The company name existed until 1840s.I cannot see the town mark, but I do bot believe Vale & Rotherham registered in London and the shape of the stamp is a better fit for Chester 1840 than Birmingham 1825 where they also registered there mark in the 1820s. To be certain need the town mark. I am a little unsure because the pendant looks as if it is 'MD' the mark of the pendant maker Mathew Davies of Spon Street Coventry, mark registered in Birmingham in 1822. To have a pendant with a Birmingham hallmark on a Chester case, is common, but both registrations 20 years prior to the date letter, means we need the town mark to be certain.

    John
     
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  49. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Keith,

    I agree with John that the 'B' is in the same style as Chester 1840, whereas the Birmingham 'B' for 1825 is not in quite the same style. The only sense I can make of the very rubbed mark here is that it's the town mark for Chester. If it is for Chester 1840 it would also account for the lack of a leopard's head which was discontinued in Chester from 1839.

    dup1 (800x600)_edit.jpg

    According to Priestley there's no later 'MD' mark registered after Matthew Davies, so we can't know how long he was active.

    What will be interesting is if we find a frame maker's mark on the pillar plate when it's dismantled.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  50. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Confirmation of 1840/50 from the signature on the movement -

    Simons, George of London. This name appears in the 1841 Post Office Directory of London trade directory in the Watch Makers section at 40 King Street, Goswell Road, London.
    Simons, George & Moses of London. This name appears in the 1856 Post Office Directory of London trade directory in the Watch Makers section at 49 King Street, Goswell Road, London. (shop later used by Money, Henry & Son)

    I didn't find Mairet & Robert in the trade directories I have immediate access to, but a more internet search could establish their active period.

    John
     
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