New York NY Standard Watch Co. clock

[Jadeoil]

Hi, I recently found a New York Standard Watch Co. electrically driven clock.

I have a couple of questions for other collectors with this most unusual clock.

I'm running it with 3.3 VDC via a #6 dry cell adaptor from Mike's Clock Clinic. Thanks Mike.

I have a impulse cycle of 1:22 What have other owners found to be the best cycle from their adjustments.

I have the Hipp Toggle "flipper" set to engage the knife edge attached to the pendulum crutch, just about in the middle vertically, and hang, when at rest, just to the right side of it.

I have the contacts set about .025 apart. When they make, I adjust the fixed contact to insure when they operated, the fixed contact has a good amount of "follow". This is when the fixed contact is pushed a bit when operated. This will cause a sliding effect to the contacts, to help keep them clean. And enough pressure to insure a good solid connection, to help avoid arcing.

I'd enjoy hearing from other owners.

Here is a youtube of the Hipp in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTu9SapKtKw

 

[Dave T]

Fascinating! Didn't know NYS made any clocks, and I've never seen one before. I'll have to study this a while to even understand what's going on.
Can you give us a laymen's explanation?

 

[eskmill]

Thank you Jadeoil for the ex ellent photos of your New York Standard battery electric timepiece clock.

New York Standard Watch Company briefly engaged in the manufacture and sales of these fascinating Hipp-Toggle principle clock movements. The cases they provided have no equal and the empty cases are sought after. The long seconds beating clocks are extremely rare. I recall seeing only one example and it had no movement.

In America, smaller desk-top versions using Mathius Hipp's principle were made by Poole and later Barr. England's Post Office used many GPO master clocks that use the Hipp-Toggle pendulum known as GPO 36 and the smaller version as the GPO 46.

 

[neighmond]

Can you post some close up photos of the indexing mechanism that the pendulum drives?

 

[Jadeoil]

Hi, here are some pictures of the indexing mechanism.


Also, and error in my post, It was Ken's Clock Clinic, that I got the #6 battery to run this, and he was quite helpful with his knowledge.

Thanks Ken.


Jay

 

[neighmond]

THANKS! THANKS AGAIN! That helps me out a lot! Cheers

Chaz

 

[Tinker Dwight]

It is interesting, it looks to have a two step ratchet.
Alternate swings look to advance the wheel 1/2 tooth
at a time.
I love the coaxial gear train.
Tinker Dwight

 

[Steve Murphy]

A very neat early electric clock, here are a couple of photos of my clock.

 

[Tinker Dwight]

Yes, clearly different. It isn't clear the picture
but looks like another Hipp Toggle.
Cool clocks.
Tinker Dwight

 

[Jadeoil]

I'll take a video of the escapement in action, and post it shortly. It has the two articulated pallets, on the rear escape wheel. They operate, one on the left tick, the other on the right tock.

Look close at the pictures, there is a second "escape" wheel just forward of the first, this is basically a detent. You can see the roundish brass extension, on the right side of the movement that acts as a weight to keep it engaged onto the wheel. With every tick it raises and lowers a round tip, that engages the between the teeth on the front wheel. This locks the wheel , so the train only goes forward.
Jay

 

[jkfabulos]

The rocker type indexing of the "escape wheel" was in my experience used only on the seconds beating models.
They had several other designs used on the 80 beat and 120 beat models.
Here are a few examples.

 

[Jadeoil]

here are some pictures of the escapement. Any one have some idea on the adjustments of the movement. Many, and touchy... I had to free up two adjustment colletts, one one the iron bar, and one for the escape pallets.
At present, I'm thinking the contact itself, has too much tension, Needs to be a lighter touch. I think it might be a heavy enough to counter act the bump, that the magnets give the pendulum crutch.

beat
angle of the iron bar
right/left position of the Hipp switch
contact opening at rest
contact closure (how much follow)
Contact pressure (how many grams to operate it)
Hipp toggle, depthing of the "flipper"
,

 

[jkfabulos]

I have restored many of these and here are a few comments.
The rocker arrangement to advance the "escape" wheel has to be a light press fit on the arbor so if necessary it can be turned slightly for the correct throw. However it must not be so loose that it can move on its own and get out of adjustment. It takes a very large swing of the pendulum to make this work correctly. I notice the yoke on yours looks to possibly be worn and would then require more pendulum travel to have it function as designed. I normally adjust this last after I get all the other adjustments correct and the pendulum has a healthy swing.
The iron bar between the magnets normally never needs to be moved unless of course someone who did not understand the principle previously did so. I have shown two "at rest" position photos that should get you close to the correct location. This bar should be very tight on the arbor otherwise it could move when the magnets are energized and will never stay correctly located.
I copied one of your photos showing a large green wire attached to the resistor. What is this connect to? It is not how it should be wired.
Almost always these wire wound resistors are bad. You can test it and it should be about 100 ohms. When they are not working you get arcing at the contact points often causing them to stick together or drag causing premature failure and uneven supply of voltage to the coils. Both contacts should be platinum.
If the resistor is bad you can substitute a common ceramic type available at any electronics supply. It should be soldered across the coils just the same as the original was.
All the hardware looks to be correct and the fine adjustments are something you will need to keep at until you find the sweet spot for your particular movement. They all seem to be a little different and it usually takes a few tries to get it correct. There seems to have been running changes in the contacts over the production run but the design concept is the same. A quirk of the adjustment for the depthing is that over time the threads get loose and the constant movement of the toggle arm can move the adjuster causing no end of problems.

 

[Jadeoil]

Hi, the green wire (not original) goes to the battery connection, which is a screw just to the right of the movement. The battery wire is tightly wound coil, to the side of the case, around a small screw, and then goes down the corner of the case to the battery box. It , along the inside of the case, is almost not visible.

the coil is original, I test it to see it's resistance. Let you know

thanks for your input.

Jay

 

[Tinker Dwight]

The shunt resistor needs to be isolated from the coils to
test or you'll just see the lower resistance of the coils.
Tinker Dwight

 

[spxer]

i realize this is a very old thread.. I have acquired one of these seconds beat NYSWCo. timepieces and want to put it "correct". A term I learned from Budgie Payne.
What is the correct wire to use and where can one get it? I assume it is cloth covered and a small gauge.

 

[tbonjour]

i realize this is a very old thread.. I have acquired one of these seconds beat NYSWCo. timepieces and want to put it "correct". A term I learned from Budgie Payne.
What is the correct wire to use and where can one get it? I assume it is cloth covered and a small gauge.

I was working on a NYS #20 Gallery just now and noticed that it still has original wiring. However, I would be surprised if the company always used the same wire. The wire in this clock is in pretty good shape inside the case and the cloth covering has completely disintegrated after it exits the case at the top. The wire on the right side of the case is white cloth, with a .05 inch solid core copper conductor. The wire on the left side is black or dark brown cloth, with a .03 inch solid core copper conductor. I suspect that the black wire only looks a bit like dark brown because of fading. The two different wire gauges surprised me a bit. It may have been simply what they had at the factory that day or maybe it was intentional. I am including a couple pictures of the wire.

 

[Jmeechie]

I use cloth cover solid core electrical wire 22 gauge for electric guitars. eBay or ? carries it. Also, Ken’s clocks carries solid electrical wire solid cloth covered. All these clocks used solid core wire. The only real difference is the cloth wire now is wrapped around plastic insulation so it’s a tad thicker causing a tight fit through holes. I sometimes have to clean the holes out with a drill bit for the wire to slip through.
cheers,
James

 

[spxer]

Thank you tbonjour and Jmeechie.
The largest drill bit I could pass through the holes was a no. 51 0.067" . I have seen electric guitar wire and it is quite a bit bigger OD as I recall. The cloth covered wire coming from the coils is several sizes smaller than guitar wire. I suppose that wire is no longer available. I see no reason why the clock couldn't be strung with bare wire. I would rather use a samller size for appearance sake, as can be seen on this clock.

 

[spxer]

I don't see how it would be possible to drill the holes larger as they are located in the absolute corner.
On another subject on the clock... I am amazed at how dainty the gear train is for such a large clock. Of course it doesn't have to hold the pressure of a weight or spring.

 

[Jmeechie]

I’ve done a number of different self winding/running electrics (Rempe, Grav-Elec, National,SWCC, Electro, Sohm, and such) and normally the wiring in the case is more substantial, larger gauge, compared to the coils or resistor. It is also woven wrap vs silk wound. You can also use copper magnetic wire for winding coils if your not concerned with cloth covered. No, the coil wires were silk thread wrapped and were prone to leakage. I’m in the process of doing a 80bpm NYStd clock and I just had to clean the holes up a hair by hand to fit new 22 gauge wiring.
This company was a watch manufacturer as well so fine tooth, thin gears was their forte.
As far as these movements, no load on the gear train except when it energizes the coils to wind.Weight wise that 4lbs pendulum bob is a force to be reckoned with!
Oh, and I believe old electric guitars and amps used various sizes of wire gauge 10 gauge (the largest) to 22 gauge (the smallest) both solid and stranded. Also, keep in mind if you are going to use screw terminal battery connections as you’ll want a thicker wire.

 

[flynnr2]

Another source for cloth covered wire is RadioDaze (where Ken gets his I believe):

(not sure if it is cool to post the direct link - I defer to the moderators)

Wire & Cable - Cloth Covered - Radio Daze LLC

www.radiodaze.com

 

[spxer]

If I could drill the holes I could use the 20 Ga. wire. I am open to suggestions on how to do it. Here is a pic. (not my clock)

 

[Jmeechie]

Can you access from the other side? Also, can you get a hand/pin vise in there or you can drill a wood dowel and then glue the drill into the dowel.

 

[spxer]

No way to get to the corner. I suspect they notched the wood support before it was glued in.

 

[Jmeechie]

Ok, I’m a little lost, i’ve blown the picture up but can’t see the hole.
Can you access the hole from the battery side?

 

[tbonjour]

If you want to use cloth wire, but it will not pass through the original holes, you might consider placing a short piece of bare or varnished copper wire through the hole to act as a terminal, and then connect cloth wire on each end of the terminal. I noticed that I have a #10 NYS with original wiring and it appears to have a dark brown/black colored cloth covered wire with a conductor that is about .03" leading to each side of the movement. It looks very much like the dark colored wire that is on one side of the NYS #20 that I mentioned earlier. I also noticed that the wire diameter is not as uniform as I would have expected, a bit less in places and a bit more in others.

 

[Jmeechie]

I beg to differ, I wouldn’t recommend splicing the wire and creating addition points of possible resistance. Just go with the copper magnetic or coil wire in 20 or 22 gauge. This wire is polyester resin coated and won’t corrode easily.
Again, my concern is every point of connection (splice), in this case 2 additional points per wire, will be soldered or clamped, is a point of resistance and possible issues. These clocks are running on 3 to 3.3 volts and any additional resistance will diminish the effectiveness of the magnetic coil pull and reduce the life of the batteries.
Cheers,
James

 

[spxer]

I think the only option is to use the magnet wire.

 

[tbonjour]

I think the only option is to use the magnet wire.

Magnet wire will no doubt work, but I would want a more durable insulation/covering on the wire. I have a number of these clocks and I retain the original wire if it is present and serviceable, but I use modern insulated wire where the original wire is too far gone or missing. I have not used magnet wire for the battery to the movement connections, but do use it if I need to insert a resistor between the two electro-magnet coils.

 

[spxer]

Another question. The pendulum stick has no wear plate for the driver. I see no evidence of screw or nail holes where one might have been. Do these clocks not use wear plates?

 

[tbonjour]

Another question. The pendulum stick has no wear plate for the driver. I see no evidence of screw or nail holes where one might have been. Do these clocks not use wear plates?

While I can't be certain that NYS never used wear plates on their pendulum rods, my NYS clocks do not have wear plates or any evidence of ever having them.

 

[Jmeechie]

I’ve seen some with wear plates but honestly believe that they were later additions. As long as the hole isn’t sloppy loose on the pin you should be fine.
On these NYStd’s there isn’t any real concern for the 1 wire on the left side of the movement touching the coil to switch wire or contact, especially using solid wire. Also, if you look at the backboard close you should see a staple hole that secured the wire originally.

 

[spxer]

Luckily, I found some suitable wire in my basement lair. I have the clock running on a pair of D cells in series. 3 volts. It impulses every 22-28 seconds. Does this seem about right? Is 3 volts correct for this clock? Does the polarity matter?

 

[Jmeechie]

In order, Great! on the wire. You’re pretty much where they impulse! They drift a little based on adjustment at switch. Yes! 3 volts is what they operate on! No polarity does not matter.
Question, do you have any arcing at the switch? If so, add a 150 ohm resistor between the (facing) right coil wire and where the left coil wire goes into the contact screw. An 80 bpm I’m getting ready to overhaul.

 

[Steve Murphy]

While I can't be certain that NYS never used wear plates on their pendulum rods, my NYS clocks do not have wear plates or any evidence of ever having them.

My seconds beating clock has a wear plate, but my #46 does not.

 

[tbonjour]

Luckily, I found some suitable wire in my basement lair. I have the clock running on a pair of D cells in series. 3 volts. It impulses every 22-28 seconds. Does this seem about right? Is 3 volts correct for this clock? Does the polarity matter?

I have found that they are pretty hard on batteries if they cycle every 30 seconds. I have often used 4 D cells in a series/parallel, 3 volt, arrangement to extend the time the batteries will last. It is a bit tricky getting some of them to cycle for longer periods though. I have several that cycle at 60 seconds or more. Sometimes a small adjustment really changes the cycle duration. I would watch out for arcing of the contacts. I use a 100 ohm resistor across the coils if the original wire wound shunt has failed.

 

[Jmeechie]

I’m doing pretty good at 40 seconds with all of mine! The crutch pin dragging/binding, incorrect suspension spring, incorrect pendulum bob (they average 4 lbs) and yes, incorrect toggle/switch adjustment will all effect duration.of pendulum swing, thus switch duration.

 

[spxer]

I checked for arcing after dark dark with the lights out. No arcing at all. Here is the movement photo.

 

[spxer]

An 80 bpm I’m getting ready to overhaul.

View attachment 690964

I am lusting after your movement as I have this No.10 case.

 

[Jmeechie]

Here’s my project! My case is a lot rougher but is tiding up nicely.

 

[tbonjour]

I like the #10 a lot. It looks like your #10 case has a movement? I think that the #10 may have been very influenced or even copied from a Fischer Clock Company clock. I have a Fischer wall clock that is missing pieces from the top. It appears to be nearly identical to a NYS #10, except the movement is entirely different.

 

[spxer]

Jmeechie, that will make a nice one.

 

[spxer]

tbonjour, the no. 10 has no movement. The pend and dial are hanging from a bracket.

 

[tbonjour]

tbonjour, the no. 10 has no movement. The pend and dial are hanging from a bracket.

The 80 beat movement is the most common. Your chances of finding a movement are pretty good. It's usually the dials and pendulums that are missing. A NYS clock seems to be more likely to be missing parts than any other clock I might encounter.

 

[Jmeechie]

I have had for near 20 years two 120 beat movements laying around waiting on cases. Last year I literally tripped over 2 cases! And then picked up the 80 bpm clock! These are the 2 cases I picked up. Sadly, original dials stripped of paint, drilled for winding and ST movements installed!
Spxer I think I saw a 80 bpm on eBay not too long ago. Good luck on your search. I do have a correct spare pendulum for a 80 bpm.

 

[tbonjour]

I have a clock like the one on the left that I began working on recently. I also have a 14" dial gallery that I bought without a movement, but like you, I also had the movement for a few years before I found the case. I have collected NYS advertising over the years and it has always seemed odd to me that the different gallery models were all called No. 20. Neither of my NYS gallery clocks have the correct two piece iron pendulum. I have been looking for that pendulum for a long long time. If I ever find one, I will try to get some copies cast. Your two gallery clocks look great.

 

[Jmeechie]

I’m actually working on casting the 2 halves in bronze ad cast iron foundries are somewhat a thing of the past. I finished the prototype, just need to do a little refining. I also just made up some toggle crutch pins in 303 stainless steel (less magnetic) as they seem to be a wear item as well as correct pendulum threaded rods.

 

[tbonjour]

I’m actually working on casting the 2 halves in bronze ad cast iron foundries are somewhat a thing of the past. I finished the prototype, just need to do a little refining. I also just made up some toggle crutch pins in 303 stainless steel (less magnetic) as they seem to be a wear item as well as correct pendulum threaded rods.

View attachment 691041

Those crutch pins and pendulum rods are a great idea and look real good. Are the original pins difficult to remove? I have one that I need to sharpen or change. If you make enough pendulum bobs to sell, let me know. If I had a good copy, I may be able to get some cast in iron.

 

[Jmeechie]

Not at all. It’s a threaded nut from behind with 2 small bevels. The reason I made these is because of wear and resharpening. It lowers the lift point causing you to lower the toggle to catch.
i‘m planning on making several additional (a total of 6 hopefully) I need 2 and a friend needs 1 so I should have 3 spare to sell. PM me so I have your contact. I’ll get a picture of the prototype tomorrow. It’s in my 1 clock running atm. The biggest issue I’ve discovere$ Is the stick# were 3/4“ wide and slightly flatter and currently available sticks are 1/2” or 1” so I opted for the 1/2” and modeled slightly wider to allow for a wider original stick.