Now is a great time to apply to Watchmaking Schools

[DeweyC]

Can’t Buy the Watch You Want? It’s Partly a Lack of Watchmakers.

With student enrollments down and retirements rising, Swiss brands worry that growth will stall.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Jim Haney]

You can not read this unless you register for the New York times, Maybe you could copy & paste?

 

[bruce linde]

You can not read this unless you register for the New York times, Maybe you could copy & paste?

you can choose to create a free account and access the article... see attached screenshot





dewey - thx for sharing that fascinating and somewhat depressing article.

in my research around my precision regulator built by adolf lange in the early 1850s ( adolphe lange precision regulator w/ grossmann pendulum ) i found the following description of what lange studied in order to be called a horologist:

"algebra, geometry, trigonometry, applied physics and mechanics, drawing, bookkeeping, and french and english' languages. every subject was dealt with in its special relation to horology. among the practical work taught was "the completion of tools, construction of models of balances, of apparatus for demonstrating the various actions in watch and clock work, of astronomical clocks, marine chronometers; also regulating, repairing, etc."

let's also not forget astronomy.

the article mentions the irony of a shortage of watchmakers in glashütte, where it all began (at least in germany). these were the fundamentals of the german watchmaking put forward by lange in the early 1850s, and then refined and formalized by moritz grossmann as the german school of watchmaking in 1878.

contrast that with the one- or two-year programs described in the article... hard to imagine anyone today applying that much rigor and discipline to learning the art and craft of watchmaking. i'm thinking they don't make horologists like they used to. 8-(

 

[Jim Haney]

you can choose to create a free account and access the article... see attached screenshot

That's great give your information to one of the largest media companys in the world.

I can't imagine they would just trash can it, when they can makes mega bucks by selling it to every panting customer....

We should not allow links that require you to register to read them...............for oblivious reasons

 

[bruce linde]

That's great give your information to one of the largest media companys in the world.I can't imagine they would just trash can it, when they can makes mega bucks by selling it to every panting customer....We should not allow links that require you to register to read them...............for oblivious reasons

the New York Times spent money to create that content... and it is excellent.... your loss.

I don't find it unreasonable for them to ask for an email address in exchange for reading it. There's nothing illegal about that… and it's not like giving them a credit number, address and phone number.

But... it is illegal to copy and paste a copyrighted article and re-post it… a violation of both the NYT's and NAWCC's copyright policies, and the nawcc's commitment to honoring copyrights in general.

and, while the New York Times will respect an unsubscribe request, there are many many unscrupulous companies out there scraping data directly off of Google, where everyone's information is freely available… Phone numbers, age, spouse, addresses, PPP loan details, etc. ( have you ever tried googling 'jim haney decatur tn'?).

The notion that you are somehow protecting yourself by not offering up your email address is a bit of locking the barn door after the horse has been stolen.

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

Let’s bring this back on topic.

 

[Mk2]

Interesting. But I think, sadly, like the manufacture of vinyl records, oil lamps and video tape recorders, it's 'old' technology and people have moved on. We haven't.

I don't think that the actual knowledge has been lost, but more than techniques and skills have changed. After all everything out there is being miniaturised more and more, so the ability to make a watch is there, but why would anyone want to? And I'm not trying to be glib about this either...

Late edit- and having just re-read the article, it comes across quite strongly that it's the money making watch companies that are pushing it. Sure, top end watch snobs will always want their trophies but the younger generation just don't get it. I've made a few mechanical watches for friends as gifts, which IMO are nice works. And designed to their taste, so it's not like that they don't like them. But they just don't wear them. They have a phone. I suppose you have to learn to appreciate the art and skill of watchmaking. They don't, and won't because tech has moved on.

 

[Nickelsilver]

Not sure I buy what they (the Swiss manufacturers) are saying. There's a shortage of cheap labor. Numerous prestigious companies have re-defined positions so that they can pay less- like you go from horloger to operateur, same job, lower pay, and if you don't like it there's the door. I know grads from watchmaking school who couldn't find a job for a year or more. I know a couple of killer 50something watchmakers who were edged out (too expensive), and then spent 12-24 months to find another job (because they're too expensive).

An entry level fully trained watchmaker here might make 4000 bucks/month. After 10 years they might get to 6000, but things start to cap out around there. That's not a very big salary in Switzerland; it's livable, but it goes fast. In the first decade of the 2000s, starting pay was about the same, but good watchmakers who could work on high end stuff and complications were seeing much higher pay, 7-9000/month. After 2008/9, things changed drastically. All along, the last 20 years, watch prices have climbed dramatically, while pay has stagnated or dropped.

Border areas like the Vallee de Joux or Le Locle/ La Chaux de Fonds stock the factories with a majority of French frontaliers, workers who live in France. I don't think that's a bad thing, but it doesn't really help that more than half the workers are taking home a Swiss salary (even if not huge in Swiss terms) to cheaper France. There are guidelines for pay that are held up by what sort of amounts to a union, but these are circumvented as mentioned above by calling a watchmaker an operator. I don't mean to sound like I'm against the frontaliers- they've been an integral part of the industry for as long as the commute has been feasible (like 100 years?). But maybe the Swiss could have started some more schools, a long time ago?

Bottom line is industry wants worker bees, for cheap. They have influenced the schools to drop a lot of the "making" part of their curriculum. Operators, not watchmakers, are what's wanted. For the more complex work, like vintage servicing or complicated pieces, there are plenty of folks. There are also young watchmakers who are very motivated and will end up extremely competent by force of will with a few years experience.

There are some companies who do care and do do what they can to help though. Chopard was mentioned in the article with their apprenticeship program; I know two grads from there and it's good. Cartier also has an excellent program (these are done in conjunction with the schools, but the apprentices finish with a lot of experience under their belt). I know there are others. But the schools are full and have been for decades.

 

[Mk2]

Excellent post Nickelsilver . Exact same situation in the electronics world. Operators or worker bees are the way it's going, which is why all electronics is produced in China. Cost of labour. Huge profits... Apple?

I guess it all comes down to machines. When it is possible to manufacture automated machines that can very accurately produce ceramic, metal and plastic components down to micron accuracy, who needs to know how to produce stuff by hand. Everything is designed in CAD, the data fed into a machine and then press go.

For instance, manufacturing a silicon balance isn't really a watchmaking skill, it's a microengineering mechanical skill. You can't do it by hand. It has to be done on a very expensive machine, which is beyond the hobbyist or small watchmaker.

And then there's 3D printing- with the ability to make stuff that is impossible to make by hand or machine... The world has changed. Entry requirements into the trade to start a business with the ability to compete with the big boys is almost impossible now.

 

[Al J]

Interesting. But I think, sadly, like the manufacture of vinyl records, oil lamps and video tape recorders, it's 'old' technology and people have moved on. We haven't.

I don't think that the actual knowledge has been lost, but more than techniques and skills have changed. After all everything out there is being miniaturised more and more, so the ability to make a watch is there, but why would anyone want to? And I'm not trying to be glib about this either...

Late edit- and having just re-read the article, it comes across quite strongly that it's the money making watch companies that are pushing it. Sure, top end watch snobs will always want their trophies but the younger generation just don't get it. I've made a few mechanical watches for friends as gifts, which IMO are nice works. And designed to their taste, so it's not like that they don't like them. But they just don't wear them. They have a phone. I suppose you have to learn to appreciate the art and skill of watchmaking. They don't, and won't because tech has moved on.

Don't really think this applies to the mechanical watch situation more broadly. The technology "moved on" in the 70's with quartz, but the mechanical watch industry is still very much alive. The demand is there - Rolex sells everything they make right now for example. People are on wait lists for years for watches from different brands.

On a more personal level, I turn away more work than I accept, simply because I can't possibly service everything I'm asked to. The other watchmakers I know are in the same boat - we are all swamped.

This is far from a dying industry.

 

[bruce linde]

On a more personal level, I turn away more work than I accept, simply because I can't possibly service everything I'm asked to. The other watchmakers I know are in the same boat - we are all swamped. This is far from a dying industry.

yes, and no. The point of the article is that there's no new blood signing up for training… Which means there is a shortage of watchmakers, as it will take time to bring people up to speed. Your statement confirms a shortage of watchmakers. if we are trending towards fewer and fewer watchmakers with no replacements in the queue, then it is a dying industry.

the clock repair people I know have waiting lists from nine months to three years. they are very experienced and know what they are doing… which is why people want to use them. They also tend to be older (with the notable exception of stephen franke and maybe tommy jobson). Where are the people who are going to train with them and learn the ropes... and someday replace them?

the shortage of qualified people is increasing. the need for qualified people appears to also be increasing... which actually implies that the industry is not exactly thriving.

 

[Mk2]

I think that when quartz replaced mechanical in the 70's it was only because there had always been, and still is, a need to know the time. Obvious I guess.
The problem is that 'telling' the time now, is a byproduct of our communications media (phones). Same for cameras, PCs, memo systems, calculators, music players... So a time piece isn't deemed a neccessary thing any more. You get the time for free.

In the UK there used to be a speaking clock service (a phone call) which was turned off a few years ago. Most radio stations here no longer tell you the time either. It's displayed in your car as well. And on your radio display.

So I guess people are not "getting into" mechanical watchmaking because they simply don't see the point. Learning to be a portrait painter was a useful skill until cameras came out. Then it simply turned into art. Same for watchmaking I feel. It's going to become an art form if we're not there already.

I often wonder why I wear a watch... It's like, right now, this exact moment, when I'm typing on this tablet, or a phone or using -wait for it- a PC, I just glance up/down/left to know if I'm late or early or whatever. And I have a lovely timepiece on my wrist. I think we agree to one thing though. It's nice to have a little mechanical clockwork engine running on our wrist.

 

[WoodyR]

i'm thinking they don't make horologists like they used to. 8-(

A horologist by definition (Merriam-Webster) is, "a person skilled in the practice or theory of horology. : a maker of clocks or watches."

The same source defines horology as, "1) the science of measuring time 2) the art of making instruments for indicating time".

How many people whom claim to be horologists actually study the science of time measurement or make instruments to indicate time? In my observation, very, very few.

Watch repair is a trade. It's not a science! I fix my own vehicles but I don't need to understand the ignition timing advance to make it work the way the designer intended - I'm not an internal combustion engine dynamicist and I don't claim to be. Why, then, does every Tom, Dick and Mary with a set of Bergeon screwdrivers refer to themselves as "watchmakers" or "horologists"? Tradespeople are absolutely essential and highly valued by me and others especially when it comes to infrastructure. IMO, horology .... true horology as defined above .... is no longer respected by the masses (as it used to be). And, those whom claim to be horologists but aren't, water down the label and reduce public opinion even further.

So, a horologist is still a horologist even if people (like to?) misuse the term.

 

[bruce linde]

'watchmaker' or 'horologist' are accepted terms that most people understand without further explanation.

the differences between my work as a clock enthusiast/hobbyist/collector and your work and someone like david labounty (who has been certified by the american watchmakers-clockmakers institute (AWCI) as a master clockmaker, is a fellow of the British Horological Institute, and a lifetime member of the nawcc are considerable... but that's not really what's being discussed. you don't have to be roger federer to be a tennis player, but you do if you want to be no. 1. with clock and watch repair, you certainly don't have to be the horological equivalent of roger... but, again, that leaves a lot of wiggle room and is not what's being discussed.

the tagline of the article is: With student enrollments down and retirements rising, Swiss brands worry that growth will stall.

enrollments are down. retirements are up. even if we're talking the horological equivalent of production line workers, enrollments are down... that means the companies who are trying to survive in the business can't find workers. if we're talking about the trained/experienced horologists, they're retiring, dying, or aging out.... at least, faster than they are being replaced... hence the long wait times for when you want to get something repaired or restored.

and, if you follow auctions, stellar pieces are still retaining their value and desirability... anything else, not so much. if you are a professional clock repair person... are you going to want to spend your time working on crap clocks? or precision clocks that cost tens of thousands of dollars?

it seems more germane to divide into 'amateurs' and 'professionals'... and the article is talking about declining interest in the profession.

yes, we love our clocks and watches, which is why we all hang out here... but membership is down massively from ten years ago (and before that), and outside of this space this is too little awareness of or passion for mechanical watches and clocks. 8-(

 

[Al J]

yes, and no. The point of the article is that there's no new blood signing up for training… Which means there is a shortage of watchmakers, as it will take time to bring people up to speed. Your statement confirms a shortage of watchmakers. if we are trending towards fewer and fewer watchmakers with no replacements in the queue, then it is a dying industry.

But the demand side is there - that's my point. Saying that no one cares about watches anymore, and therefore the industry is dying, just doesn't reflect reality.

If no one was emailing me to ask for servicing, and everyone I knew was in the same position, then I would agree that the industry is in serious trouble. Right now it's just not in a state of balance with demand - that's a good thing for people like me, who earn their living doing this. It's bad for the consumer who wants to get their watch repaired in a reasonable time frame.

Is any industry with a shortage of workers "dying"? That doesn't make any sense.

I also look at my customer base - it's far from being a bunch of old people. Sure I have lots of older customers, but also a lot in the 20's, 30's and 40's. There's a massive resurgence of things like vinyl records with younger people, who also want tube amps, and want to fiddle with turntables. Far from people "moving on" from things like vinyl, in 2022 vinyl sales surpassed CD sales - the first time since the 80's that has happened:

Vinyl record sales top CDs for first time in more than 30 years: "Music lovers clearly can't get enough" - CBS News

Lack of watchmakers is certainly a threat to the industry, but the watch companies are making changes to address this. They use watchmakers for less and less of the actual service of a watch, for example. Either by having the watchmaker only work on the movement, and unskilled workers (who are given on the job training) doing the case work and initially disassembly and reassembly (things like removal/installation of dials, hands, and final casing).

Or they are using selective assembly - an assembly line process where unskilled workers are taught how to assemble one specific portion of the movement before it moves down the assembly line. More and more companies are using this.

The last thing is a movement swap - they are just exchanging the entire movement at the local service center, then sending the used movement to a central facility to be serviced. Then these movements are sent back out to service centers to be swapped into another watch somewhere.

I didn't read the article as I'm not signing up for it, so I'm not sure if it mentions any of this - not likely because these are things that companies don't want people to know, as it spoils there impression of a grey haired Swiss master toiling over their ETA 2824-2 (that most likely gets swapped out at service).

To paraphrase Mark Twain, the reports of the industry's death are greatly exaggerated...

 

[Al J]

A horologist by definition (Merriam-Webster) is, "a person skilled in the practice or theory of horology. : a maker of clocks or watches."

The same source defines horology as, "1) the science of measuring time 2) the art of making instruments for indicating time".

How many people whom claim to be horologists actually study the science of time measurement or make instruments to indicate time? In my observation, very, very few.

Watch repair is a trade. It's not a science! I fix my own vehicles but I don't need to understand the ignition timing advance to make it work the way the designer intended - I'm not an internal combustion engine dynamicist and I don't claim to be. Why, then, does every Tom, Dick and Mary with a set of Bergeon screwdrivers refer to themselves as "watchmakers" or "horologists"? Tradespeople are absolutely essential and highly valued by me and others especially when it comes to infrastructure. IMO, horology .... true horology as defined above .... is no longer respected by the masses (as it used to be). And, those whom claim to be horologists but aren't, water down the label and reduce public opinion even further.

So, a horologist is still a horologist even if people (like to?) misuse the term.

This is a very formal and outdated definition.

Most watches are not made by watchmakers. They are made by production workers in a factory, using batch manufacturing. Having been through many watch factories (Blancpain, Patek Philippe, Audemars Piquet, Jaeger LeCoultre, Vacheron Constantine, Chopard, etc.) I can tell you that the watchmaker typically only does the final assembly, and sometimes not even that - they may just do the final adjusting. Most workers are just doing the job they are trained on at the workstation they are assigned, and they process a batch of parts, and move it along to the next station.

When I visited Patek Philippe, I spoke to a CNC machine operator, and he was mad as heck. He blamed those darned engineers (he didn't know I am an engineer) for not listening to him, and it resulted in an entire batch of parts that had run overnight, were scrap. Yes, the machine was set-up to run lights out, with no one there, overnight.

Just like the automobile assembly line isn't staffed with certified auto mechanics, the watch production lines are not staffed with watchmakers or horologists. They are people in a factory making widgets, just like any other factory, and those widgets just happen to be watches.

The people who actually sit down and make watches from scratch (the independent watchmakers) are few and far between. I've spent time with a number of those as well - Romain Gauthier, Philippe Dufour, etc. These are very different operations to the mass produced watches.

For me personally, I don't care if someone calls me a watchmaker, horologist, watch smith, watch mechanic, their "watch guy", or whatever. I'm not hung up on titles, so as long I get paid and my customers are happy, I'm happy.

Cheers, Al

 

[Bruce W Sims]

A piece that gets lost in these discussions is the personal pride and satisfaction a person experiences having accomplished a goal with extraordinary quality. I thoroughly accept that the people under discussion in the article are Not watchmakers, nor do their employers want them to be. They are crafts-people, certainly, and technicians and factory workers and assemblers. They are Not watchmakers as they do not make the pieces they work on.

Now...for me....the challenge of working on a piece from 1857 is that I already know spares are very likely not available or not easily found. As a result I will be expected....and expect myself....to develop the skillset to make or modify in order to produce the part I need. Personally, I don't know What that makes me. My vote goes with "somewhat demented". What I Can say is that whatever you want to call me, I get a real high out of doing what I am doing. Call it what you like.

Best Wishes,

Bruce