Nice English watch - late 19th Century lever...

[pmwas]

Tempted by the double sunk dial and low price I bought a non-functional English watch for parts/repair.

The seller was unable to remove the dust cover, so I had no clue if the movement was fine or even complete.
Still - the price was low and the dial... double sunk.

Of course - looking through the web you'll see, that d/s dial might mean nothing in English watches. Some lower grade movements have d/s dials as well as high grade movements may not have one.
Anyway - the watch arrived today.

Disassembling went quite smoothly, I only had to replace the mutilated fusee taper pin.



The only signature I found was this H.S mark on the underside of the balance cock.

The watch turned out to have a more advanced fusee with what seems to be power maintainer. Am I right? I just don't know.



The fusee assembles easily as ever, but the additional ratchet in the movement might be a pain…



Yes - I forgot all about it.
Also - one of the pilars have a stuck pin, but I did not remove it. It's good with just three pins and it does not want to come out.
I'd have to drill it, I guess, as last time i tried to punch one out I bent the pilar…

Not realising that I've forgotten the additional ratchet, I went on with assembling and there I encountered two other problems.
First was the 'traditional' problem with fitting the pallet fork over the potence - needs some patience and delicacy. Some use rodico, but it's not exactly necessary.

​

Second - the fusee bearing is drilled NOT in the pilar plate, but in the additional dial side train bridge.
This is… so irritating. I purposely did not put the 3rd gear in place, so that I could rewind the chain to the barrel, and yet now I needed to - temporarily at least - screw down the train bridge to rewind the chain.
Also - I'd not be able to put tension on the mainspring after rewinding the chain, as I'd still have to remove that, to place back the 3rd gear. It's just… unsolvable! My fabulous technique of working with fusee watches turned out totally wrong here!

Ah, and the ratchet.
You can imagine how mad I was realising I have to remove the top plate again!



In the green circle you can see the fusee pivot loose in a large pilar plate hole.
Somehow I managed to keep the chain on he barrel while reassembling the movement.
In the end, the movement was all back togehter waiting for the balance assembly, but... yes - it was difficult.

I don't say that very often, but this movement turned out to be annoying and difficult to assemble.
Motion works and the d/s dial:



Not exactly prime condition, but looks good.
And the balance:



A nice, shiny, gold balance wheel.
As you see, the case has English silver marks (Chester 1876 according to the seller) and the movement is good quality, well jewelled English lever with power maintainer (?) in the fusee.



S/N 50,069.
Like I said - unmarked, except for the H.S on the balance cock.



Non original hour hand.



The watch works fine and so far (3 hours) keeps time.
A good buy for the price, very nice watch.

Hope you'll tell me more about it (yes, Graham, I'm looking at you ) as all I know is that it's a circa 1875 English lever watch...

Have a nice day!!!

 

[gmorse]

Hi Paul,

...The watch turned out to have a more advanced fusee with what seems to be power maintainer. Am I right? I just don't know...

This is Harrison's maintaining power, and is found in most English lever watches from the 19th century. It's elegantly simple in its action but is often neglected by repairers who are reluctant to dismantle the fusee to clean and lubricate it properly. (And yes, it's easy to forget that long click between the plates . . .).

...First was the 'traditional' problem with fitting the pallet fork over the potence - needs some patience and delicacy. Some use rodico, but it's not exactly necessary...

If you assemble the movement 'upside down' on the top plate, it becomes much less troublesome and doesn't require any additional 'aids'.

The 'H.S' stamp is recorded by Robert Kemp in his article 'Watch Movement Making in Prescot' but unfortunately not attributed. It may just be the mark of the escapement maker / finisher.

The date is indeed 1876/7 in the Chester assay office, and the case maker's ('sponsor's') mark appears at first sight to be 'JF'; however in this diamond shaped cartouche it's far more likely to be 'JR' for Joseph Radges, listed as a watchmaker at 14 Butts, Coventry. Perhaps you can confirm this with a closer look at the stamp. The fact that he's listed as a 'watchmaker' suggests that he probably made the movement as well as the case.

There are several ways of winding the chain back into the movement, but for a ratchet wheel setup I usually wind all the chain onto the barrel and secure it there with a blob of Rodico, (other sticky putties are available; it's about the only realistic use for this stuff), while I hook the other end into the fusee.

A good solid Coventry finished watch which may well have started life in Prescot, as suggested by the 'Liverpool crow's feet' on the regulator scale. The 'Coventry Star' is also there in the centre of the scale, and by this date it's pretty clear that the demarcation between the Liverpool and Coventry watchmaking centres was becoming quite blurred, with parts, movements and tradesmen moving to and fro between them.

Regards,

Graham

 

[pmwas]

Thanks!!!
So much information again !!!

Of course - working on American watches I know the upside down technique, but it gets harder with fusee chain present...

EDIT

The marking is JF clearly. It's better inside the case - JF

 

[gmorse]

...Of course - working on American watches I know the upside down technique, but it gets harder with fusee chain present...

EDIT

The marking is JF clearly. It's better inside the case - JF

Working upside down shouldn't affect the fusee chain, because that isn't installed until the plates are safely pinned together and the movement has been turned over. The opening in the top plate is often only just big enough to let the barrel drop in, but not sufficient to allow the chain as well, so it has to go on after the barrel is installed.

There's a 'JF' in that shape listed in the Birmingham office for John Fleckner at 1 Portland Terrace, Chapel Fields, Coventry on 9th August 1875. The lack of a mark in the Chester lists for this maker's particular cartouche, (he was registered in Chester but not with this mark according to Priestley), isn't really surprising in view of the rather vague nature of the Chester registers. These anomalies seem to come up time after time with Chester.

It does leave open the question of who made the frame, as Fleckner isn't listed as a 'watchmaker'.

Regards,

Graham

 

[pmwas]

Yes, the fusee chain
I've fought with this many times and the easiest technique I've deceloped is to wrap it around the fusee and rewind to the barrel (using a winding key) after pinning the plates together. The presence of the dial side bridge allows that nicely also in lever watches. Not in this one, though
Otherwise I kept having trouble with the chain - it would fall off the barrel before I could attach the other hook to the fusee. I think I'd have to work on more of such watches in search for perfection

 

[gmorse]

Hi Paul,

...I've fought with this many times and the easiest technique I've deceloped is to wrap it around the fusee and rewind to the barrel (using a winding key) after pinning the plates together...

That works well if there's enough of the barrel arbor square showing above the ratchet wheel to allow a firm grip when winding the barrel afterwards, or of course in the earlier watches with a tangent screw between the plates. If there isn't enough of the square to grip firmly, especially if it's at all worn, my technique is probably safer. An alternative is to make a special wrench which fits over the ratchet wheel and turn it with that rather than the square.

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Matthews]

The 'H.S' stamp is recorded by Robert Kemp in his article 'Watch Movement Making in Prescot' but unfortunately not attributed. It may just be the mark of the escapement maker / finisher.

Paul/Graham - I think HS is Henry Simm.

Unfortunately, I cannot be certain which of these two is the best candidate ...

St Helen's Road, Eccleston, who was active 1861 to 1871 at least, as a frame maker, [age 50 in 1876]​

or

Prescot active 1871 (Pottery Place) to 1881 (Cyprus Street) [age 23 in 1876]​

John

 

[pmwas]