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Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by R.D. Montgomery, Oct 9, 2017.

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  1. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    Hello. I’m a newbie to clock repair or clock anything. Bought my sister a grandfather clock when I was a GI in Germany in 1971 and have been intrigued by them ever since. Retired FAA radar and air traffic control computer systems tech with ZERO clock experience. I’m a car guy with a ’65 Chevelle 300 (undergoing a LS3 swap with my oldest son) and a ’70 Chevelle El Camino SS (383 stroker). Way too much info for a clock board.
     
  2. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Welcome Roger. Is there anything what we can help you with? Is your clock working fine?

    David
     
  3. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    Sorry...missed this post:


    If you are new to the Message Board, and are looking for help or advice on a problem, it will make it easier for the rest of us to help you if you tell us a bit about yourself. Here are some suggestions:
    1. Where do you live? (Country and State or Province) California
    2. Are you familiar with clock terminology? See this thread for some info. Most of it.
    3. How much experience do you have with clock repairing? Have you worked on several clocks, or are you just starting out? Minimal
    4.Do you have the tools to do your job? Tell us about your equipment. I have all the Schedule A type tools but no special clock tools.
    5. Clear pictures of the clock, or the part, you are asking about, are of enormous help to those trying to help you. Click here for instructions on posting pictures. Not that far yet.
    6. If a piece of information or advice is unclear to you, say so. Don't be shy. We are all here to help each other. OK.
     
  4. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    Thanks David. I have four GF clocks with different problems but this one I'd really like to zero in on:

    Emperor Model 120 with a Hermle 461-053H movement. I think it originally had a Model 189M or 199M movement. Majestic beautiful tall clock that runs great, strikes hourly but won’t quarterly chime at all. Have a video clip or two but I only see ways to post pics
     
  5. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    Roger is my first name but all my friends and acquaintances call me Monty. Nothing wrong with the name...just never have used it. Didn't see a place to make a note when doing the membership form.
     
  6. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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  7. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    Guess I need a better camera view of the chime mechanism.
     
  8. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    Welcome to the MB Monty! We're here to assist you every way.
    Pictures always help.

    bangster
    moderator
     
  9. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    I'm not familiar with that model but the video clearly shown chime drum rotating but no sound. Most chime clocks have a lever someplace that "turns off" the chimes, usually by lifting the hammers away from the chime rods or otherwise causing the chime drum to rotate while doing nothing. Look around for the chime shutoff feature. It may be a lever on the front of the clock. It could also be that the lever got pushed behind the clock face, bent or damaged.

    RC
     
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  10. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    The clock strikes the hour but won't chime the quarters?

    That's odd, because the hourly strike is initiated by the chime train, so if the chime (that is, the Westminster stuff at the quarters) doesn't start, then the hourly strike train won't, either. They design the clock this way so that the strike won't start before the chimes are finished.

    And if the chimes don't start, it's generally because the pivots of the chime train gears are gummed up.

    However, it's possible for one of the cams to get loose on its shaft, in which case the audio section of the clock is liable to do almost anything. Possibly the best strategy is to take the dial off the clock so you can see the front of the movement and then spend a few hours or perhaps days learning how the chime and strike work. That's what I did, though there are also books and videos on the subject. None of it is really profound: though the mechanisms are clever, they aren't six-speed automatic transmissions either.

    As for photographs, I use my ancient digital camera a lot. I take pictures of every side of every movement, for you never know when some previously unfathomable part is going to clatter to the floor, leaving you to figure out where it went and whether it's in upside-down. This has saved my bacon a number of times, and you never knows just when that's going to be. And you can then attach the more interesting pictures to your posts.

    Mark Kinsler
     
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  11. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Whoops. I just saw the video and R Croswell is right: the little pointy cams on the chime drum are somehow missing the bottom of the hammers. This is happens when the drum or the hammers are somehow misaligned, either on purpose or by accident, or else the hammers are being held back by something.

    M Kinsler
     
  12. wow

    wow Registered User
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    I think RC has got it. The chime drum is turning, so the chime train is initiating the warn of the strike train. The hammer lifts that are tripped by the drum points are not being lifted. Should be a simple fix once you figure out why they are not being lifted.
     
  13. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    Thanks for the input. After I saw there is a chime shutoff feature on most of these clocks I found a lever on the right side of the clock but it doesn't seem to do anything. Seems the chime drum with little tits on it needs to be lifted so they will strike the hammer arms. Later this afternoon I will try to get a couple of pics of the right rear side of the movement and a better video of the right front area where the chime levers and gears are. Thanks again. Monty
     
  14. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    The chime drum should be in a fixed location. Probably the first rule in fixing clocks is DO NOT modify something that's been the way it is for the life of the clock in order to compensate for some other problem or you will end up looking at two problems. If you found the chime shutoff and it doesn't "turn on" then move the lever back and forth and watch what it is attached to. At some point you should discover a, usually black steel, bar that's holding the chime levers out of the way. There is apparently a disconnect between the on/off lever and the actual piece that lifts the hammers away.

    Now there is one other possibility that comes to mind. Sometimes there is a restraint used during shipping to keep the hammers from flopping around. It could be a screw-mounted piece that you need to manually swing out of the way or remove. Could also be a plastic restraint that needs to be removed. Picture will help.

    RC
     
  15. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User

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    I also noticed that the chime drum was turning, but the hammers aren't being lifted. And when you watch the movement, both fans - chime & strike turn in normal sequence. So there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with the movement itself. If the alignment of the chime drum matches the hammer tails, then what else is left but that something is holding the hammers away?
     
  16. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    20171009_155852.jpg 20171009_155949.jpg 20171009_155956.jpg 20171009_160006.jpg
     
  17. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    Thanks Bangster.
     
  18. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    Emperor Model 120 Hermle 461-053H failing to quarterly chime

     
  19. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Well, something is holding the hammers back, for their little springs are stretched out a bit. Is it possible that the chime rods are somehow out of place and the hammers are just laying on them? (Not likely, but worth looking at: at rest, there should be a bit of daylight between the hammers and their rods, and the video doesn't show us how the hammer heads and the chime rods.)

    If not, then the hammers aren't lined up with their cam wheels, which shouldn't happen when the clock is assembled correctly, for the alignment isn't adjustable. Could be that someone took the hammers apart and didn't assemble them correctly, but I've never seen this happen either.

    The chime drum is fixed to its shaft (I think) and can't be moved thereupon, so the only other choice is the hammers themselves.

    M Kinsler
     
  20. wow

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    Roger, as the drum turns, each point on the drum must be lined up with the lifting points on the hammer rack. If they are not, either the drum must be moved or the rack must be moved so they are lined up. Someone may have removed the chime drum sometime in the past, and left out a washer on one end of the arbor making it out of line. Or....left out a washer on the rack section doing the same thing. Make sense?
     
  21. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    In the video it does in deed look like the points on the drum are not lined up with the hammer rack. Kinsler asked "Is it possible that the chime rods are somehow out of place and the hammers are just laying on them?" There should be about 1/8" between the hammer head and the tone rods. This is an important question. If the hammers are resting on the tone rods then either the tone rod bracket is not positioned correctly OR the clock movement is not positioned correctly, assuming that no one has bent the hammer tails. Now if the hammer heads are resting considerably more than 1/8" above the tone rods, then we are back to that chime shutoff lever and mechanism that's holding the hammers up so the points on the hammer rack don't contact the points on the drum. Also look carefully to see whether the chime shutoff device on this model functions by shifting the drum in or out to prevent the chimes from playing. It may be stuck in the off position and need some help.

    RC
     
  22. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    From the earlier video it seems that this movement doesn't have any provision for shifting the chime drum's position like a triple-chimer would. And the long L-shaped device (what are those called, anyway?) meant to immobilize the hammers has been swung up out of the way, so it's not that, either. So we will have to wait for further revelations, if any.

    I must say that neither the hammer array nor the chime drum look strange, nor does the chime assembly seem to have been pounded upon. The chime drum parts are pretty much staked onto their shaft, and the bumper springs for the hammers are riveted to theirs.

    M Kinsler
     
  23. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    It does appear that the hammers are not in their lower position, and the wheel can't connect with their tails. Does the movement have a bar holding the hammers up? Those are made for transporting the clock, and should be moved out of the way for running the clock.
     
  24. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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  25. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    20171011_165858.jpg 20171011_165929.jpg 20171011_170423.jpg

    Pics of hammer assy.
     
  26. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    So, the hammers are hovering a respectable distance from the chime rods, so now my suspicion is that someone has done something that I did once, which was to take the hammers apart (it's unnecessary) and then re-assemble them incorrectly (which is also unnecessary.) They're kind of counter-intuitive, and there are two springs per hammer: one that acts as a hammer stop and one that pulls the hammer toward the chime bar when it's released by the cam on the chime wheel. It's those hammer stop springs that are weird because it isn't obvious that they're supposed to be tucked under one of those long posts.

    M Kinsler
     
  27. Bill Stuntz

    Bill Stuntz Technical Admin
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    Monty, welcome to the MB! If you want, you can change your visible user name to Monty or Monty Montgomery or some such.
    Click on your avatar here: name change.png Under SETTINGS on the left, there's an option to change your user name.
     
  28. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I think I see the problem. That lever that you raise at the beginning of the video just flops down like that because it should be attached to a little step device. It will have a spring that holds tension on it, and that is what keeps the chime drum in position. As is, I believe the drum is out of position. Can you post pics of that area where the lever enters the movement?
     
  29. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    Thanks Bill.
     
  30. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    I think I can get the camera in front of the front plate for a better shot. Doesn't feel firm...just flops loosely when you raise it and let it go. Is that the chime silencer lever? Thanks shutterbug...
     
  31. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I believe it is. On some multi-chimers it sets the chime selection, but on yours just on or off.
     
  32. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    Thanks for taking the time shutterbug. Do you know a good source for getting service manuals for a any of these movements? I've ended up with four clocks without even trying. Can you use the manuals for the replacement movements for troubleshooting, pics, and general repair of the old units? I don't pretend to be a clock repairer or restorer and never will come close to it especially when I read the stuff from all the amazing clock artists on this board. But so far I really enjoy grandfather clocks as a hobby just starting out and love this board. If these guys can tolerate my ignorance, I'm all in. Thanks again, Monty
     
  33. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    There are lots of manuals and clock repair books, some of which are on the Internet. In general, however, clock movements are sort of generic because they all serve the same purpose. There are some weird ones like electric chime clocks, but most grandfather clocks are weight-driven and German and surprisingly similar. Yours is pretty typical.

    And despite what you may infer from this and other clock repair discussions, reverence is not a requirement. You don't have to belong to the Royal Swiss Horological Guild, which I just made up, to do this stuff.

    M Kinsler
     
  34. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    The Hermle manual is available on line. Also look for Mark Butterworth's book on German Clock Movements.

    If the chime silencer works like a triple-chime shifter, it moves the pin barrel sideways so's the pins don't hit the hammers.There should be a yoke linkage that shifts it when the lever is activated. My bet is that the silence lever is disconnected, so the barrel never gets moved over into working position. You might check that out.
     
  35. harold bain

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    Most manuals assume the reader to have a good basic knowledge of clock repair. If you don't have this, you should start with a basic clock repair manual to bring your abilities up to where the manual will assume you are.
     
  36. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    He's right. But there's a problem here. If you look at the first picture in response #25, you'll see a little black hole in the plate near the chime-drum gear. This would be a memorial to the drum-shifting mechanism that once extended through the plate and is now presumably gone forever without a trace.

    No wonder the original poster was stumped: I'd have been too, for only that hole, and the fact that the drum (maybe) slides sideways on its shaft, are the only clues to what was once there. I'd say that the simplest fix would be to first line up the drum on its axle so the points hit the hammers and then fix it into place with something non-aggresive like a dab of bright fingernail polish, which is strong, visible, but dissolves completely in acetone when and if the missing parts re-appear. The chime won't shut off, but that's the case on lots of grandfather clocks.

    M Kinsler
     
  37. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I think that movement is still made. Not too expensive either. Contact Mark Butterworth for a quote.
     
  38. BLKBEARD

    BLKBEARD Registered User
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    As a NAWCC Member, your entitled to borrow books & repair video's from the extensive collection of the NAWCC Library.
    David Labounty has a good set of Clock Repair Video's available there. Steven Conover has a good series of repair books.
    Just two that come to mind of the many resources available as part of your membership.
     
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  39. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    #39 R.D. Montgomery, Oct 13, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
    Chime Shutoff Lever?


    Guess I will have to pull the dial assy off to get a look at what the lever is or isn't hooked up to. The movement is working strong. It would be a shame to replace it. This is a hobby for me. I don't have a customer waiting for their clock. It might sit in the corner of the garage until I get up to speed - if I get up to speed. If I hit a dead end, I have a clock guy I know take a look. But where's the fun in that?
     
  40. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    Thanks for the info BLKBEARD! I will try to support the guys that donate their time to the board by purchasing their parts, books, etc. Haven't been able to locate Butterworth's book on German Clock Movements yet though. Nothing on Amazon and only a DVD on Ebay. Would like to get something on my wife's Grandfather clock she inherited from her Dad when he passed away last year. It's an Urgos UW32/3. Replaced the suspension spring and it runs for a bit now and wants to get in-beat but tricky trying to adjust the verge/crutch with a stepladder over the top of the clock. I know the BPH so if I can get close enough in the right direction. I am using the Clocktuner app on my Galaxy Droid phone. Just wished they made a Clockmaster app (I think that's right for the Droid). Big problem is the clock is right next to our African Grey parrot Ollie (Olivia) and she won't be quiet long enough for me to get a reading. :) Sorry...guess I need to start another thread for that one.
     
  41. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    Look HERE for Butterworth book.

    How old is your bird?
     
  42. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    Found Steven G Conover books on Amazon. Was going to get Striking Clock Repair Guide and either Clock Repair Skills or Clock Repair Basics or both. Any suggestions?

    Couldn't find any of Mark Butterworth's books though. Thanks, Monty
     
  43. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    She's only about 3 1/2 years old. We're not really bird-people and are probably doing her an injustice but she tolerates us and is a damn good talker. Too good.
     
  44. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    I googled that too but don't understand all I know about Worthpoint. Is it a book club? I would rather buy something I can keep.
     
  45. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Looking at your video, I don't believe that lever controls the chime barrel position after all. Back to looking for something holding the hammers too high.
     
  46. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    I have the Emperor Model 120 series kit assembly instructions for the case and the Installation & Operating Instructions for the Emperor Hermle Model 189M-199M movement that apparently came with it but the movement in there now is a Hermle 461-053H. Would the Hermle 461-053H service manual show chime and silencer installation with a pic or two? Thanks for all the input. Monty
     
  47. R.D. Montgomery

    R.D. Montgomery Previously Roger Montgomery
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    Bought all three of Steven G. Conover books that I mentioned. The skills book was a sequel. Thanks again for the info on Conover. Monty
     
  48. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    Monty:
    Check out the conversation I just staarted with you.
     
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