Newbie Repair Questions (2)

[kes_nc]

Hi,

I recently picked up two pieces that I am excited to clean-up and learn about. The first piece is a 1903 E Ingraham Regulator "Western Union" model. I have take the movement apart and begun the cleaning process. When taking apart I noticed that the brass spring on the main spring was broken (see attached picture).

Question 1: Is this something that I should have someone with experience drill out or is it most cost effective to find a used / functioning wheel?

The second observation is one of the holes on the base plate looks to be worn (see picture).

Question 2: Is this safe to assume this hole is a likely candidate to be re-bush'ed? Assuming it is, what should I expect to pay a reputable shop for a repair like this?

Thank you, everyone, for all of your time and advice!
KES

 

[bkerr]

By the way it looks I would certainly bush the plates. I sure you have seen before on the board that bushing is one step, the arbors must also be cleaned up and polished to fit the new bushings. the missing wire is the click spring and you can find replacements for nearly all the suppliers. There again, stretch , clean, oil and inspect the springs. Take your time, look close at each wheel, teeth and trundles. Have fun!

 

[Willie X]

You can buy spring wire on a spool. This is the suff you need. All else is likely from India and the quality is very poor. This is a place where spring failure can be a game ender.

Willie X

 

[Dick Feldman]

Clock repair, is more than clean, oil and adjust. That is a start for this discussion.
If the click return spring has failed, it may have caused secondary damage to the movement, like bent/broken teeth, bent arbors (the axle), etc. Any replacement parts you may find from other movements will have been subjected to the same conditions, meaning you might be replacing with defective/worn/short lived parts. In addition, the original design was sometimes deficient. The click assembly, which includes the click, the ratchet wheel and the return spring should be brought up to standards. Those should reasonably be expected to operate another 100 years. Many of the original return springs were made from brass, which is a poor material for springs. The clicks should be tight fitting on their pivots, their points should be in good shape and the ratchet teeth should be sharp and mated to the clicks. Many of the click assembly parts offered by the normal clock suppliers are made in India and of very substandard quality. Proper click repair is a viable part of clock repair and ignoring the click assemblies could involve an injury later.
The elongated hole (called a pivot hole) is an indication of wear. That hole once was round. With proper evaluation of that movement, you likely will find many or most of the holes elongated. bkerr mentioned bushings and that is the normal solution for worn clock movements.
If you have only one clock to repair and want a quality job done, it might be best to take it to a specialist. If you plan to be a clock repair person, it might be to your advantage to find a mentor. At the very least, it would be well to go to your local library and read some books written by known and qualified authors. The internet is a great tool but much of what is shown on UTube videos, etc. promotes poor practice. Without knowing the trade, one can be led terribly astray. This board is populated by all levels of clock repair people. Some give good advice and others do not.
In the past, I have been flamed by some on this board for "chasing people away." My intent is not that but to promote a high quality, safe experience.
That is how I feel,
Best of luck with your clock(s)
Dick

 

[R. Croswell]

Hi,

I recently picked up two pieces that I am excited to clean-up and learn about. The first piece is a 1903 E Ingraham Regulator "Western Union" model. I have take the movement apart and begun the cleaning process. When taking apart I noticed that the brass spring on the main spring was broken (see attached picture).

Question 1: Is this something that I should have someone with experience drill out or is it most cost effective to find a used / functioning wheel?

The second observation is one of the holes on the base plate looks to be worn (see picture).

Question 2: Is this safe to assume this hole is a likely candidate to be re-bush'ed? Assuming it is, what should I expect to pay a reputable shop for a repair like this?

Thank you, everyone, for all of your time and advice!
KES

The issues that you describe, broken click spring and worn pivot holes are typical everyday problems for a clock shop. I would guess that your clock has quite a few worn pivot holes that should be bushed. The broken brass click spring wire (typical in Ingraham clocks) can easily be replaced after the rivet is removed and turned over to expose the original staking. Of course, the rivet cannot be reused and none of the ones available will be the right size, so a new rivet is usually made. Bushings cost less than a buck and can be installed in just a few minutes. Pretty simple repairs if you know how to do them and have all the special tools that are required. While it is apart, you should consider having the entire movement cleaned and checked for wear and having everything but back to good running order. The cost depends on where the shop is located and what needs to be done and prices vary greatly. I think you are looking at the $200 to $400 ballpark. Less than that and you are probably not going to get a professional job. Much more and you may be making someone's boat payments and might get another price estimate.

If you want to invest the time and money to learn to repair clocks, there are several ways to do that and Dick's suggesting finding a mentor is a good one but keep in mind that you need someone who does quality work and has years of experience, not just someone down the street who "fixed" grandma's old clock and is willing to help. You will need to spend many hours with your mentor and unless you find someone who is retired and still has his tools, you may be taking someone away from their paying line of work. It takes four times as long (maybe longer) to show someone else how to do the job than it takes and experienced person to do the job. Are you willing to pay $60, $80, $100 /hr. for someone to teach you when they could be working for a paying customer? It is easy to say find a mentor, but for many, it isn't so easy and could be expensive.

You can probably find all the mentoring you need here to apply methods described in "books written by known and qualified authors". Dick said, " "The internet is a great tool but much of what is shown on UTube videos, etc. promotes poor practice. Without knowing the trade, one can be led terribly astray. This board is populated by all levels of clock repair people. Some give good advice and others do not", and I have to agree. You have one flat tire from a on your car from a small nail, the guy next door recommends bubble gum and some goop shot in the tire, the guy at the service station recommends removing the tire and putting a patch inside. The tire dealer in the next town wants to replace all four tires. One does not need to be a genius to recognize the really bad advice.

RC

 

[kes_nc]

Clock repair, is more than clean, oil and adjust. That is a start for this discussion.
If the click return spring has failed, it may have caused secondary damage to the movement, like bent/broken teeth, bent arbors (the axle), etc. Any replacement parts you may find from other movements will have been subjected to the same conditions, meaning you might be replacing with defective/worn/short lived parts. In addition, the original design was sometimes deficient. The click assembly, which includes the click, the ratchet wheel and the return spring should be brought up to standards. Those should reasonably be expected to operate another 100 years. Many of the original return springs were made from brass, which is a poor material for springs. The clicks should be tight fitting on their pivots, their points should be in good shape and the ratchet teeth should be sharp and mated to the clicks. Many of the click assembly parts offered by the normal clock suppliers are made in India and of very substandard quality. Proper click repair is a viable part of clock repair and ignoring the click assemblies could involve an injury later.
The elongated hole (called a pivot hole) is an indication of wear. That hole once was round. With proper evaluation of that movement, you likely will find many or most of the holes elongated. bkerr mentioned bushings and that is the normal solution for worn clock movements.
If you have only one clock to repair and want a quality job done, it might be best to take it to a specialist. If you plan to be a clock repair person, it might be to your advantage to find a mentor. At the very least, it would be well to go to your local library and read some books written by known and qualified authors. The internet is a great tool but much of what is shown on UTube videos, etc. promotes poor practice. Without knowing the trade, one can be led terribly astray. This board is populated by all levels of clock repair people. Some give good advice and others do not.
In the past, I have been flamed by some on this board for "chasing people away." My intent is not that but to promote a high quality, safe experience.
That is how I feel,
Best of luck with your clock(s)
Dick

Thank you, Dick, for taking the time to read my post and respond. I very much appreciate the candor and agree. I also like the idea of staying away from Utube and stick with some proven authors of the trade. Thank you again!

 

[kes_nc]

The issues that you describe, broken click spring and worn pivot holes are typical everyday problems for a clock shop. I would guess that your clock has quite a few worn pivot holes that should be bushed. The broken brass click spring wire (typical in Ingraham clocks) can easily be replaced after the rivet is removed and turned over to expose the original staking. Of course, the rivet cannot be reused and none of the ones available will be the right size, so a new rivet is usually made. Bushings cost less than a buck and can be installed in just a few minutes. Pretty simple repairs if you know how to do them and have all the special tools that are required. While it is apart, you should consider having the entire movement cleaned and checked for wear and having everything but back to good running order. The cost depends on where the shop is located and what needs to be done and prices vary greatly. I think you are looking at the $200 to $400 ballpark. Less than that and you are probably not going to get a professional job. Much more and you may be making someone's boat payments and might get another price estimate.

If you want to invest the time and money to learn to repair clocks, there are several ways to do that and Dick's suggesting finding a mentor is a good one but keep in mind that you need someone who does quality work and has years of experience, not just someone down the street who "fixed" grandma's old clock and is willing to help. You will need to spend many hours with your mentor and unless you find someone who is retired and still has his tools, you may be taking someone away from their paying line of work. It takes four times as long (maybe longer) to show someone else how to do the job than it takes and experienced person to do the job. Are you willing to pay $60, $80, $100 /hr. for someone to teach you when they could be working for a paying customer? It is easy to say find a mentor, but for many, it isn't so easy and could be expensive.

You can probably find all the mentoring you need here to apply methods described in "books written by known and qualified authors". Dick said, " "The internet is a great tool but much of what is shown on UTube videos, etc. promotes poor practice. Without knowing the trade, one can be led terribly astray. This board is populated by all levels of clock repair people. Some give good advice and others do not", and I have to agree. You have one flat tire from a on your car from a small nail, the guy next door recommends bubble gum and some goop shot in the tire, the guy at the service station recommends removing the tire and putting a patch inside. The tire dealer in the next town wants to replace all four tires. One does not need to be a genius to recognize the really bad advice.

RC

Thanks, RC, for the response and insight. It is really appreciated. I have not thought about a mentor before - it is a great suggestion that both you and Dick (in the thread) make.

 

[bkerr]

One thing that I don't see and think there should be more of is the fact that there are local NAWCC chapters as well as the library that can be accessed as a member. I agree with mentors and this board. I often wonder how many are supporting through membership. I don't see as many "member banners" that would / should support the NAWCC. Just an observation.

 

[HotCzech46]

KES, first things first. Can you give us some idea of your plans/intentions? Are you just interested in repairing this clock or are you planning on continuing with Horology work and getting into clock repair? If you just want this clock fixed, then I think you have received excellent advice from the people who have already responded. If you want to get into clock repair, even as a hobby, and this is just your first venture into this wonderful area, then I will be glad to respond with some recommendations.
Just so your aware, I am a Newbie myself (maybe I have graduated to "apprentice" since I have repaired about 20 clocks). Advice on this forum is fantastic. Not slighting anyone else, but RC, and Willie X, and Tracerjack really, really helped me getting started. I was not lucky enough to find a mentor, and the local NAWCC chapter where I live does not concentrate on education. This forum was my best source of information. Bushing the holes, for example, sounds daunting for a beginner, but after I did my first one, I realized it was relatively simple and my fears were unfounded. I went from hand bushing my first worn holes to now owning both KWM and Bergeon bushing machines. Be careful, easy as it is, it is also easy to screw them up (speaking from experience!). Books and good advice help! The click spring is not something that is easily fixed by a beginner unless you find an exact replacement and are comfortable with doing riviting work. RC's comments are right on. If you're just wanting to get this clock fixed, then hiring someone to do it is the right way to go. If you cannot find someone, you could reach out to your local NAWCC chapter. They will certainly have recommendations and should be able to help. You can find a list of the local chapters here on the NAWCC website. If you are wanting to do it yourself, let us know what you find in your search for a replacement spring and let the experts here advise you. Just as a side, I had a similar problem with a click spring and discovered that they must be made out of hardened steel and most of these professionals make their own replacements out of old mainsprings. In my case, the prior repairer made the spring too wide (by about a thousandth of an inch), and it rubbed on one spot on the second wheel and stopped the clock from running. I didn't have to replace the click spring and just sanded it down to proper width.
One word of caution and safety. Since the click spring is missing, the mainspring was already unwound. When you replace the click spring, and wind the mainspring, you get into an area that can really be dangerous. Trying to let it down without a proper letdown tool can hurt you. Good books and good advice can help you avoid this.
Finally, as bkerr noted, if you're interested in horology, you should join the NAWCC, both nationally and your local chapter. Dues are small compared to the wealth of information made available to you.
David

 

[R. Croswell]

KES, first things first. Can you give us some idea of your plans/intentions? Are you just interested in repairing this clock or are you planning on continuing with Horology work and getting into clock repair? If you just want this clock fixed, then I think you have received excellent advice from the people who have already responded. If you want to get into clock repair, even as a hobby, and this is just your first venture into this wonderful area, then I will be glad to respond with some recommendations.
Just so your aware, I am a Newbie myself (maybe I have graduated to "apprentice" since I have repaired about 20 clocks). Advice on this forum is fantastic. Not slighting anyone else, but RC, and Willie X, and Tracerjack really, really helped me getting started. I was not lucky enough to find a mentor, and the local NAWCC chapter where I live does not concentrate on education. This forum was my best source of information. Bushing the holes, for example, sounds daunting for a beginner, but after I did my first one, I realized it was relatively simple and my fears were unfounded. I went from hand bushing my first worn holes to now owning both KWM and Bergeon bushing machines. Be careful, easy as it is, it is also easy to screw them up (speaking from experience!). Books and good advice help! The click spring is not something that is easily fixed by a beginner unless you find an exact replacement and are comfortable with doing riviting work. RC's comments are right on. If you're just wanting to get this clock fixed, then hiring someone to do it is the right way to go. If you cannot find someone, you could reach out to your local NAWCC chapter. They will certainly have recommendations and should be able to help. You can find a list of the local chapters here on the NAWCC website. If you are wanting to do it yourself, let us know what you find in your search for a replacement spring and let the experts here advise you. Just as a side, I had a similar problem with a click spring and discovered that they must be made out of hardened steel and most of these professionals make their own replacements out of old mainsprings. In my case, the prior repairer made the spring too wide (by about a thousandth of an inch), and it rubbed on one spot on the second wheel and stopped the clock from running. I didn't have to replace the click spring and just sanded it down to proper width.
One word of caution and safety. Since the click spring is missing, the mainspring was already unwound. When you replace the click spring, and wind the mainspring, you get into an area that can really be dangerous. Trying to let it down without a proper letdown tool can hurt you. Good books and good advice can help you avoid this.
Finally, as bkerr noted, if you're interested in horology, you should join the NAWCC, both nationally and your local chapter. Dues are small compared to the wealth of information made available to you.
David

Thanks for the complements but I do not consider myself to be an expert (whatever that is), although I have probably done a few hundred clocks. I accept that there are often different ways to accomplish the same objective and like others here, I just try to share what I have found that works and what may not work so well. I'm still learning to.

RC

 

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And he's humble