Newbie rebushing Urgos

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
Here I am back from my first hand rebushing experience, and looking forward to the next .
First was escape wheel, and many thanks to all who helped with advice.
Now the previous wheel, and another potential problem..in attached photos it looks as if a bush has already been fitted. , So a tentative tap from the outside failed to budge it. Now I look more closely at the inside do I see tin IMG20210401194843.jpg IMG20210401194815.jpg IMG20210401194815.jpg IMG20210401194815.jpg y punch marks round the edge, as if punch locked in place? I would be grateful for advice about whether to punch or drill it out, or a combination.
Yours in hope
peter
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
13,784
1,425
113
Looks like metal has been moved toward the inside? I would knock it out, from the inside, with a regular flat punch, about 1/8". Be sure to support the outside well, close to the bushing, or you could distort the plate. Willie X
 

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
Looks like metal has been moved toward the inside? I would knock it out, from the inside, with a regular flat punch, about 1/8". Be sure to support the outside well, close to the bushing, or you could distort the plate. Willie X
Thanks, maybe a socket from my toolkit held in a bench vise?
Peter
 

wow

NAWCC Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,068
509
113
75
Pineville, La. (central La.)
Country
Region
Thanks, maybe a socket from my toolkit held in a bench vise?
Peter
That should work, Peter, but first be sure the OD of the bushings you are removing are the same as the OD of the new bushings you are
planning to use. Do you have KWM bushings or Bergeron? Bergerons are larger than KWM. If they are Bergeron and you have KWM, don’t remove them. Just ream a new hole in the old bushing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MuseChaser

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
46,417
1,857
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
I think I would just pretend it is an un-bushed hole. Ream it out as normal, and if it comes out, fine. If it doesn't, just bush it like it wasn't there.
 

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
That should work, Peter, but first be sure the OD of the bushings you are removing are the same as the OD of the new bushings you are
planning to use. Do you have KWM bushings or Bergeron? Bergerons are larger than KWM. If they are Bergeron and you have KWM, don’t remove them. Just ream a new hole in the old bushing.
As its my daughters clock, not mine, and only my secong venture into clock repair, and the bush looks very securely attached, i
 

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
As its my daughters clock, not mine, and only my secong venture into clock repair, and the bush looks very securely attached, i chickened out. Also, it looks as if putting the hole back may be too close to previous wheel.
So I am now looking at the escapement ad a possible cause of stopping. Reading This Old Clock by David Goodman (thanks to the person who recommended this) and trying to see his words in my clock.
I did see some play in the hole where the pallets arbor pivots ( back bridge on my Urgos ), should that be snug? I plan to come back soon with a video or two, sorry to post without. Thank for help
Peter
 

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
As its my daughters clock, not mine, and only my secong venture into clock repair, and the bush looks very secure
ly attached, i
Here I hope a video of escapement, any comments about this welcome...does it look ok, need adjusting? From my Urgos 8 day that runs 4 days.
also short vid of pallets pivot, no movement seen although it is sloppy in hole.
Cheers
Peter

 

Kevin W.

NAWCC Member
Apr 11, 2002
23,098
529
113
63
Nepean, Ontario, Canada
Country
Region
I would do as Shutt suggested.
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
13,784
1,425
113
Leaving the old bushing might be the best approach, depending on sizes and the equipment available. Willie X
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
46,417
1,857
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
It looks like your video's were with the pendulum removed. We could tell more about the action there with the pendulum in place.
 

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
It looks like your video's were with the pendulum removed. We could tell more about the action there with the pendulum in place.
No, pendulum in place, viewed from front of movement, as the only view I could find showing both pallets.
I have just re learned a valuable lesson...dont take my eye off the basics, and make sure it is in beat foe test runs! Testing now continues, to see what position the pallets are in when it stops.
And I shall check for better viewpoints for making videos.
 

wow

NAWCC Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,068
509
113
75
Pineville, La. (central La.)
Country
Region
I looked at the videos again and was able to barely hear the ticks. In both videos it is out of beat. I think your escapement bushings are fine. The movement must be perfectly in beat.
 

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
I looked at the videos again and was able to barely hear the ticks. In both videos it is out of beat. I think your escapement bushings are fine. The movement must be perfectly in beat.
Many thanks Wow, I now have it in beat and will see how long I get before deciding if I need to pluck up courage for more surgery.
 

tracerjack

NAWCC Member
Jun 6, 2016
1,666
236
63
Lodi, CA
Country
Region
After changing both videos’ speed to slow motion, I saw good recoil from only one pallet. EW stops dead on the other. Shouldn’t it recoil on both?
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
13,784
1,425
113
Yes, but not when it's out of beat. I noticed the same thing. Willie X
 

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
Hi, thanks for comments.
I think the Urgos is now in beat, and I am interested in the recoil comments, any suggestions about what may be needed? I attach new video and snap of Clock Tuner result.
At present I see no recoil, I would do slow motion video but cant seem to do that on my phone with zoom also.


Screenshot_2021-04-04-16-47-34-10_bab55e0b756d6ff94a0e4070974912e9.jpg
 

wow

NAWCC Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,068
509
113
75
Pineville, La. (central La.)
Country
Region
It’s still not in beat. You must have it perfectly in beat or it will stop. Move the crutch slightly to the right after you feel pressure against it.
 

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
It’s still not in beat. You must have it perfectly in beat or it will stop. Move the crutch slightly to the right after you feel pressure against it.
Thanks for that, how did you tell?
Does the attached slow video help?
I see a bit of recoil now. Is that looking good?

 

wow

NAWCC Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,068
509
113
75
Pineville, La. (central La.)
Country
Region
Thanks for that, how did you tell?
Does the attached slow video help?
I see a bit of recoil now. Is that looking good?

I could barely hear it in the first video. This one has no audio. It looks good on the video but I have to hear it to tell for sure. Slow motion does not help me.
 

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
Thanks for that, how did you tell?
Does the attached slow video help?
I see a bit of recoil now. Is that looking good?

I could barely hear it in the first video. This one has no audio. It looks good on the video but I have to hear it to tell for sure. Slow motion does not help me.
Thanks for your help, I will try again tomorrow. Is it by ear you judge in beat? I am trying to arrange microphone and oscilloscope to display ticks and tocks.
Peter
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
46,417
1,857
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
You are definitely getting some recoil now. Probably enough to run. Is it?
 

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
You are definitely getting some recoil now. Probably enough to run. Is it?
Thanks Shutt, and thanks to all helpers and this excellent organisation.
I have followed all suggestions with gratitude, although I have yet to brave the possible dangers of rebushing existing bush which I suspect may be wrongly placed.
My ears are gradually getting tuned to "beat", and I looked up Syncopation. Having raised the pallets a smidge and realised how critical is "fore and aft" levelling ad well as sideways, and thanks for beat advice, I now have clock running at less spring wind than before.
Now to see how far it will wind down, then rewind to check number of key turns and check full run time.
When it last stopped I did notice that the wheel before EW was leaning on EW rather than pushing it, so maybe lack of driving force will need checking.
Many thanks, and I for one am never too old to learn.
Peter (ex newbie?)
 

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
You are definitely getting some recoil now. Probably enough to run. Is it?
Hi again,
And again I go back to basics.
Having been told this is an eight day movement, I have tried to achieve that.
Now I count the key turns, and it runs down less than two turns, then when it stops, at about three and a half days, I unwind the spring to slack which is only a quarter turn.
Does that not sound like a four day movement? How can I check this?
The backplate has Urgos logo,
8.9301
13 and thats all.
Having written this I think I have convinced myself, thanks for listening
Peter
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
13,784
1,425
113
It's not a four day movement ... Either the main-spring has been shortened drastically. Or, you're not winding it up completely at the start. No need to count the turns except for curiosity. :)
Wound up tight is the only reference point when winding a clock. Lots of folks think they are hurting it somehow ! Willie X
 

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
It's not a four day movement ... Either the main-spring has been shortened drastically. Or, you're not winding it up completely at the start. No need to count the turns except for curiosity. :)
Wound up tight is the only reference point when winding a clock. Lots of folks think they are hurting it somehow ! Willie X
I attach photo of spring I removed and replaced with similar (0.55 mm thick, about 5 inches wide in the pic, for a 45 mm barrel. Same running time for each, and yes i wound until solid.
Peter

IMG20210410223329_02.jpg
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
13,784
1,425
113
Look up "Willie's turns of power", that will tell you what's going on there. Essentially you figure out how many turns of the barrel it takes to run your clock for one day and multiply this by 8. If your spring will supply that number of turns of power it will run for 8 days.
Note, on a barreled spring you start with a fully let down mainspring and wind it until you hear (and feel) the spring shuffle in the barrel. Count the turns of available power starting at the shuffle point and ending at the wound up tight point.

Example, a well marked barrel turns .5 turn in 1 day. That's .5 turns per day x 8 equals 4 turns. If your clock is going to run for 8 days, the spring will need to provide 4 turns of power after the shuffle point. 5 turns would give you a 10 day run, etc.

That spring is kinda funny looking but I don't think it's to short.

Willie X
 

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
Look up "Willie's turns of power", that will tell you what's going on there. Essentially you figure out how many turns of the barrel it takes to run your clock for one day and multiply this by 8. If your spring will supply that number of turns of power it will run for 8 days.
Note, on a barreled spring you start with a fully let down mainspring and wind it until you hear (and feel) the spring shuffle in the barrel. Count the turns of available power starting at the shuffle point and ending at the wound up tight point.

Example, a well marked barrel turns .5 turn in 1 day. That's .5 turns per day x 8 equals 4 turns. If your clock is going to run for 8 days, the spring will need to provide 4 turns of power after the shuffle point. 5 turns would give you a 10 day run, etc.

That spring is kinda funny looking but I don't think it's to short.

Willie X
Yes, I am Clear on that.
I have 1.75 turns (that's revolutions) of the key for 3.5 days running, and if it ran right down it would be about 2 turns for 4 days, so agreed on 0.5 turns per day.
That's what makes me think I may have wrong spring, but how to confirm that and get right one?
The Urgos came to me with two springs same thickness in time and strike trains, and the Time barrel is marked with a lightly scribed "S" (!).
Maybe someone put stronger spring in to overcome a problem and never worried about run duration?
I replaced mainspring, but with similar size as I knew no better.
I attach photo of barrel, with apologies for black grease before I knew better, but I don't expect that adds much to the story.
Perhaps i should move this to Mainsprings thread, but I hope it's nearly resolved.

IMG20210411104654 spring in barrel.jpg
 

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
Yes, I am Clear on that.
I have 1.75 turns (that's revolutions) of the key for 3.5 days running, and if it ran right down it would be about 2 turns for 4 days, so agreed on 0.5 turns per day.
That's what makes me think I may have wrong spring, but how to confirm that and get right one?
The Urgos came to me with two springs same thickness in time and strike trains, and the Time barrel is marked with a lightly scribed "S" (!).
Maybe someone put stronger spring in to overcome a problem and never worried about run duration?
I replaced mainspring, but with similar size as I knew no better.
I attach photo of barrel, with apologies for black grease before I knew better, but I don't expect that adds much to the story.
Perhaps i should move this to Mainsprings thread, but I hope it's nearly resolved.

View attachment 648822
Sorry to be a pain, where can I find Willie's turns of power? Tried searching.
Cheers
Peter
 

wow

NAWCC Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,068
509
113
75
Pineville, La. (central La.)
Country
Region
Manna’s, I think your spring is fine. Have you checked the barrel and cap for wobble? These barrels spin on their arbor and often wear those two holes to the point that the teeth on the barrel do not mesh properly with the T-2 pinion. This causes drag and could be part of the problem. New snug bushings in both the barrel and the cap may be necessary.
 

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
Manna’s, I think your spring is fine. Have you checked the barrel and cap for wobble? These barrels spin on their arbor and often wear those two holes to the point that the teeth on the barrel do not mesh properly with the T-2 pinion. This causes drag and could be part of the problem. New snug bushings in both the barrel and the cap may be necessary.
Thanks Wow, I just looked at that, they look good. That might limit the last bit of run time when spring is nearly down, but I am looking at a good run for about half the expected duration, then run out of spring.
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
13,784
1,425
113
Nann,

No clock will run all the way down to the 'let down' position ... And, the point where it quits running has little meaning.

OK, from the completely 'let down' position, start winding and listen for the shuffle. The spring will shuffle at somewhere around 2 or 3 turns. When it shuffles, you are at the point where the spring has good power. Starting at the shuffle point, count the turns until your clock is wound up. In your case you will need at least 4 (360°) turns. That's 'shuffle point' to 'wound up' ... 4 turns or more.

Anything over 4 and less than about 6 turns would indicate a spring that is good for your clock.

Anything under 4 turns would indicate a spring to short, to long, or to thick.

This test is not subjective. If you have 4 "turns of power" there, your clock should run for 8 days. If it doesn't, there is still something wrong with the movement, not the spring.

Willie X
 

Jay Fortner

Registered User
Feb 5, 2011
5,067
33
48
Chiefland,Fl.
Country
Region
The spring should fill 50% of the space within the barrel.
Area of barrel minus area of arbor divide by two then divide that number by the thickness of the spring. That will give you total length of the spring.
Works the same for metric or kings rule measurements.
 

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
The spring should fill 50% of the space within the barrel.
Area of barrel minus area of arbor divide by two then divide that number by the thickness of the spring. That will give you total length of the spring.
Works the same for metric or kings rule measurements.
Wow, the things you guys know and can diagnose remotely that my inexperienced hands on can't.
Thanks Willie x and Jay for another step toward solution.
To check my turns of power I put the barrel on my spring winder for a more controlled and visible wind, and guess what? It went four and a half turns, then ping it spun round, which I expect means I installed spring in barrel with wrong bend on the hole end. Lets hope the rivet is ok.
Thanks again.
Peter
 

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
Nann,

No clock will run all the way down to the 'let down' position ... And, the point where it quits running has little meaning.

OK, from the completely 'let down' position, start winding and listen for the shuffle. The spring will shuffle at somewhere around 2 or 3 turns. When it shuffles, you are at the point where the spring has good power. Starting at the shuffle point, count the turns until your clock is wound up. In your case you will need at least 4 (360°) turns. That's 'shuffle point' to 'wound up' ... 4 turns or more.

Anything over 4 and less than about 6 turns would indicate a spring that is good for your clock.

Anything under 4 turns would indicate a spring to short, to long, or to thick.

This test is not subjective. If you have 4 "turns of power" there, your clock should run for 8 days. If it doesn't, there is still something wrong with the movement, not the spring.

Willie X
And I can clean out all the black grease when fixing spring. But I still cant find Willie's turns of power.
 

Jay Fortner

Registered User
Feb 5, 2011
5,067
33
48
Chiefland,Fl.
Country
Region
It may just be the spring came unhooked from the arbor. Always reach in with needle nosed pliers and squeeze the inner coil a little to make sure the arbor hook gets a good bite. Ain't nothing like getting a movement all assembled and the arbor won't catch the spring. Rrrrrrrr!!!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: NEW65

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
13,784
1,425
113
Nann,

The spring does have the look of a spring that has been reversed, end for end. Outer turns are tight and inner turns are loose. That's bass ackwards from what you normally see but I've reversed quite a few and they still worked OK.

If you counted 4 1/2 turns past the shuffle, then your clock should run 9 days. Some will run well into the shuffle zone before they stop.

So, your short run problem is in the movement, not the spring.

Willie X
 
Last edited:

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
Mann,

The spring does have the look of a spring that has been reversed, end for end. Outer turns are tight and inner turns are loose. That's bass ackwards from what you normally see but I've reversed quite a few and they still worked OK.

If you counted 4 1/2 turns past the shuffle, then your clock should run 9 days. Some will run well into the shuffle zone before they stop.

So, your short run problem is in the movement, not the spring.

Willie X
Thanks Jay and Willie X,
I may just not have been hard enough on the wind!
Now running for a time trial, back in a few days.
In the meantime, while trying to extend the run time (with spring nearly down) I did notice it was stopping on one area of the EW, not on one tooth but over a range of several, so when it has run down I will check for runout on the EW.
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
13,784
1,425
113
Nann,

I took a closer look at your mainspring. It does not look like a spring that has been reversed. It looks like a spring that was pulled out about 20 inches, in maybe a cleaning attempt? Willie X

A reversed mainspring looks like this:

20181127_163310.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: NEW65

Nannas400

Registered User
Dec 27, 2020
55
3
8
76
devon, uk
Country
Region
Nann,

I took a closer look at your mainspring. It does not look like a spring that has been reversed. It looks like a spring that was pulled out about 20 inches, in maybe a cleaning attempt? Willie X

A reversed mainspring looks like this:

View attachment 649100
Yet another excellent diagnosis from afar, that would be me cleaning. As for the reversed spring, how would you even start. Safety kit no doubt.
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
13,784
1,425
113
That is a trick for when a spring breaks near the center and there is no replacement available. It's pretty easy to do amd it may get you by, for a while.

Now doing a 'flip over' reversal that's a tough act rite there. Huckabee said yes.
I say don't try it!

Willie X
 

Forum statistics

Threads
165,460
Messages
1,440,294
Members
86,240
Latest member
Carolyn Reynolds
Encyclopedia Pages
1,101
Total wiki contributions
2,873
Last edit
Weekly News 7/7/19 by Tom McIntyre