Newbie needs help with Mantle Clock running really fast

[craftech]

Hi,
Happy to join this fabulous forum. I have read a lot of posts. Great place.

I have a mantle clock kit I finished and assembled when I was younger. It hadn't been running in years. It is a three wind chiming clock with an Erhard Jauch clock movement.

I removed the movement and followed some oiling instructions I found and it started up and seemed to run like new except that the speed is insanely fast. It gains 30 seconds every 60 seconds and there appears to be no way to slow it down using the lever on the balance wheel.

Moving the lever toward plus or minus makes no change. The other little arm attached to the lever I can move as well, but it makes no difference. I have attached some photos and would appreciate any help you could provide.

Thanks,
John

 

[wow]

The balance spring looks suspicious. It must not touch anything including itself. Show us a photo or two of the whole spring.

 

[craftech]

Thanks for the quick reply Will.

I was wondering if you could tell me how to remove it to photograph. Using the first photo I posted, do I remove 3 or is it 4 screws on the baseplate and then lift up? After that remove the 2 holding the lever thus exposing the hairspring (balance spring)?

Thanks,
John

 

[wow]

The balance escapement is very delicate. Do not remove anything without first letting down the mainspring. If you could angle the camera/phone so we could see inside the escapement where the spring attaches, that would be better. I suggest you find a watch repair person or someone who is experienced in platform escapements before trying to remove it yourself.

 

[tracerjack]

Without a healthy rotation of the hairspring balance, the clock will be fast. Although I have had little success with hairspring movements, (I’m still trying) I have learned that if you add finger power to a wheel and the hairspring then performs properly, the problem is not the hairspring. It is a lack of power. Since the movement has been idle for years, without doubt it is dirty and needs disassembly to clean it properly. Simply adding oil to a dirty movement may get the wheels turning, but I think your balance platform is telling you there is not enough power.

However, I have to agree with wow that the coils in your photo could be off but it is difficult to see from that angle. But, if no one has touched the hairspring, I don’t see how it could self mutilate.

It also appears that there are jewels for the balance. After years, they are most certainly dry. Learning how to oil them while looking through a microscope was the greatest test of my patience. Made working with my clock movements seem like a walk in the park.

 

[craftech]

Hi Will,
I am not sure if these photos are suitable. Best I could get without any disassembly.
When you say "letting down the mainspring" could you describe that? I am pretty careful when I do things.

The moveable arm (not the lever) has the mainspring attached to a brass piece protruding from the bottom of it. There are two rivets on top holding it. Is that a slot for the spring? it a press fit? I think that is what you mean by "letting it down". Detaching it from that brass piece on the bottom of the arm.

John

 

[tracerjack]

Having suffered learning with pocket watches so I could understand how hairspring balances work, I suggest you do not touch that hairspring or any thing on the platform until you have educated yourself on how they are put together and how they are disassembled. After years of being idle, your movement can not perform properly without being cleaned, then properly lubricated. When you have done your homework, then decide if you want to have a go at cleaning the movement and servicing the platform. I don’t mean to sound harsh. I am simply trying to impress upon you that from what you have posted, I don’t think you have the knowledge or experience to repair this type of movement. I’ve gone through ten pocket watches and only now would I have the courage to disassemble your beautifully made Swiss one.

 

[craftech]

Without a healthy rotation of the hairspring balance, the clock will be fast. Although I have had little success with hairspring movements, (I’m still trying) I have learned that if you add finger power to a wheel and the hairspring then performs properly, the problem is not the hairspring. It is a lack of power. Since the movement has been idle for years, without doubt it is dirty and needs disassembly to clean it properly. Simply adding oil to a dirty movement may get the wheels turning, but I think your balance platform is telling you there is not enough power.

However, I have to agree with wow that the coils in your photo could be off but it is difficult to see from that angle. But, if no one has touched the hairspring, I don’t see how it could self mutilate.

It also appears that there are jewels for the balance. After years, they are most certainly dry. Learning how to oil them while looking through a microscope was the greatest test of my patience. Made working with my clock movements seem like a walk in the park.

Well I did flip the wheel a few times to get it going. I am wondering if there is oil on the hairspring. Tried a can of compressed air to lightly blow off the excess yesterday after seeing it ran so fast. We're not talking a little fast. It literally gains 30 seconds every sixty seconds.

Maybe there is another way to slow it down. Even if it is a little off, it's better than what's going on now.

John

 

[craftech]

Having suffered learning with pocket watches so I could understand how hairspring balances work, I suggest you do not touch that hairspring or any thing on the platform until you have educated yourself on how they are put together and how they are disassembled. After years of being idle, your movement can not perform properly without being cleaned, then properly lubricated. When you have done your homework, then decide if you want to have a go at cleaning the movement and servicing the platform. I don’t mean to sound harsh. I am simply trying to impress upon you that from what you have posted, I don’t think you don’t have the knowledge or experience to repair this type of movement.

I admit it. I don't.

Have any online references for me to read?

Thanks,
John

 

[tracerjack]

For education, watch YouTube videos on pocket watches. You will find it enlightening, particularly oiling the capstones. The balance assembly on pocket watches is identical to your clock one, just smaller.
To answer your question, no, there are no shortcut measures to slow done your clock. It’s performance is telling you exactly what is wrong. It is dirty and needs cleaning.

 

[craftech]

For education, watch YouTube videos on pocket watches. You will find it enlightening, particularly oiling the capstones. The balance assembly on pocket watches is identical to your clock one, just smaller.

Thanks.
I'll do that.
John

 

[Raymond101]

From those photos you have move the small leveler as per say. Put it back so it sits in a straight line with the adjustment arm . There is a gap on the upper ring it should be central. By pushing that arm over to 180 to the lock pin . Move it back 90 degs .
that small lever that adjusts the spring length and what has happened the spring has been pushed past its limit an tucked under so its touching the other coils and making the spring effectively shorter .so it will run mad fast.
also as Willi said don't remove that platform without letting the spring down .

edit .. looking at those last 2 photos you showed the spring has been pushed off center
and i can see at least 3 touch points . To straighten a platform hair spring is not that easy I have fixed quite a few but it has to be totally dismantled NOT a simple job.
as it has a twist in it

 

[craftech]

From those photos you have move the small leveler as per say. Put it back so it sits in a straight line with the adjustment arm . There is a gap on the upper ring it should be central. By pushing that arm over to 180 to the lock pin . Move it back 90 degs .
that small lever that adjusts the spring length and what has happened the spring has been pushed past its limit an tucked under so its touching the other coils and making the spring effectively shorter .so it will run mad fast.
also as Willi said don't remove that platform without letting the spring down .

edit .. looking at those last 2 photos you showed the spring has been pushed off center
and i can see at least 3 touch points . To straighten a platform hair spring is not that easy I have fixed quite a few but it has to be totally dismantled NOT a simple job.
as it has a twist in it

Thanks Raymond,
Yes I put it back to where it was originally (last two photos as you said).

I started watching the pocket watch videos as tracerjack suggested before I decide whether I want to tackle it myself or bring it to a service person. Several posters have indicated how difficult it is to remove, straighten, and reassemble the platform hair spring so I imagine I also would have to be careful who I brought it to as well. I would think they too would have difficulty with it.

John

 

[tracerjack]

From those photos you have move the small leveler as per say. Put it back so it sits in a straight line with the adjustment arm . There is a gap on the upper ring it should be central. By pushing that arm over to 180 to the lock pin . Move it back 90 degs .
that small lever that adjusts the spring length and what has happened the spring has been pushed past its limit an tucked under so its touching the other coils and making the spring effectively shorter .so it will run mad fast.
also as Willi said don't remove that platform without letting the spring down .

edit .. looking at those last 2 photos you showed the spring has been pushed off center
and i can see at least 3 touch points . To straighten a platform hair spring is not that easy I have fixed quite a few but it has to be totally dismantled NOT a simple job.
as it has a twist in it

In the original photos of the balance, the regulator pins are out of line with the lever, but in the following photos they are in line. So if it is still not performing, it was not the regulator pins that were the problem.

 

[tracerjack]

Thanks Raymond,
Yes I put it back to where it was originally (last two photos as you said).

I started watching the pocket watch videos as tracerjack suggested before I decide whether I want to tackle it myself or bring it to a service person. Several posters have indicated how difficult it is to remove, straighten, and reassemble the platform hair spring so I imagine I also would have to be careful who I brought it to as well. I would think they too would have difficulty with it.

John

It is painstakingly hard to straighten distorted hairsprings by those (myself included) who do not have enough experience. I don't believe your hairspring is distorted. There is a name for how your hairspring tail is placed, where it loops below the coils, but I can't remember it offhand. Anyway, I think you are wise to study the situation a bit and then decide what to do.

 

[craftech]

Looking at the videos (so far) it is still not clear to me how to remove the ENTIRE assembly to get a better look at it.

It looks like three screws and then it lifts up (leaving the hairspring, lever, wheels, etc still attached).

John
EDIT: "Letting down the mainspring" - releasing the wound mainspring first before surgery.
I am Learning

 

[JayKosta]

I wouldn't remove anything at this time. FIRST try to find some pictures of how the spring should look when it is in correct position.

 

[shutterbug]

Hair springs are tricky to reshape, and not for the faint of heart I think the advise about getting a watch guy involved with that balance is good.

 

[craftech]

I wouldn't remove anything at this time. FIRST try to find some pictures of how the spring should look when it is in correct position.

Having a lot of trouble finding that.

Is the hairspring supposed to be attached to the bottom of the adjustment arm? Can't find that anywhere.

 

[tracerjack]

The regulator pins or slot are supposed to slide along the hairspring when you move the lever between the +/-. If you move the lever and the spring does not get wildly distorted, it is functioning properly.

 

[craftech]

The regulator pins or slot are supposed to slide along the hairspring when you move the lever between the +/-. If you move the lever and the spring does not get wildly distorted, it is functioning properly.

It slides, but it spreads out a lot.
Thanks for that info. Much appreciated.
John

 

[JayKosta]

Is the entire section of the spring beyond the pins free of contact with anything? It looks like it might be tangled under the inner winding.

And does anyone know if that end of the spring should be 'free', or if the end should be attached to something.

On a small clock of mine that section (the outermost portion of the spring is attached to a mounting point, and then the spring goes thru the pins as the spring curves inward.

 

[tracerjack]

Is the entire section of the spring beyond the pins free of contact with anything? It looks like it might be tangled under the inner winding.

And does anyone know if that end of the spring should be 'free', or if the end should be attached to something.

On a small clock of mine that section (the outermost portion of the spring is attached to a mounting point, and then the spring goes thru the pins as the spring curves inward.

It doesn’t look tangled to me. The last portion of the hairspring is supposed to be bent downward to accommodate the position of the stud. However, the stud may not be fully seated with its screw. It is hard to tell from the photo.

In watches and platform balances, I have only seen the end attached to a stud. In small clocks, the end is clean wire which is secured into a hole by a tapered pin. I have never seen that type have end jewels.

That sounds correct for a small clock hairspring movement.

 

[Daniel Reuben]

Photos 2 and 3 at the beginning show the outer coil clearly bent inward like Pluto's orbit crossing Neptune's. That can't happen with a hairspring. Each loop (although spiral) in any given quadrant should look like a separate orbit. So, the hairspring is either bent, stuck to another loop due to oil or stuck to another loop by magentism. The only way to diagnose and fix is to unscrew a half turn or two the small stud screw and release the stud, then the two screws at the back of the balance bridge (at the + and -) and the lift off the balance and bridge, separate them and see what the hairspring is doing on it's own. This is easy to mess up and one has to consider availability of parts if something goes awry....but that is what has to be done.

 

[tracerjack]

I think after watching some pocket watch videos, the OP will have enough understanding on how to safely remove the balance and hairspring in order to check.

 

[Raymond101]

This type of platform with the eye slot are a little more tricky as the slot can have dirt stuck on the edges that may have move the hairspring to the lower part . It should be sitting in the center of the slot. Also as already said this platform needs to be removed very carefully as the 6 or 8 tooth pinion sits underneath by about 10mm apx and engaging into the drum. Sorry forgot the name of this . The connection if not moved correctly will damaged it .
I would recommend that if this is a first time . Find some old clocks from junk or Ebay. To practice on first. This platform to replace is about a $150+ .
Also watch on YouTube about platform escapement and how they sit . Good luck.

 

[craftech]

Two places I oiled that I probably should not have are in these two cavities:

I may put a little bit of paper towel at the top of those cavities and turn the clock face down to drain excess oil (if any) or blow a an of compressed air in there.

John

 

[Raymond101]

I wouldn't recommend doing that way. You are more likely to do more damage. Even though you oiled the ruby jewels wrong. This is not the way. Your main problem is the hairspring is stuck . As per mentioned, twisted, or stuck because it's got magnatizer & or old oil etc .blowing it or adding tissue will just add more fibers .
This spring must be released correctly. By dismantling & cleaned IPA would be better.

 

[tracerjack]

I wouldn’t use either paper towels or compressed air. Until you feel confident enough to dismantle the escapement and movement for proper cleaning, you will most like create more problems than solve them.

 

[craftech]

Thanks Raymond.
Made a DIY Let Down Tool (found on YouTube)

 

[craftech]

Removed the movement and let down the mainspring to take better photos.

 

[Raymond101]

Ok well done . There is a visible twist and a lot of dirt . I'm not sure your ready for the next part .removing the bridge. If this is a first time. There are some good stuff on YouTube. The balance has to be lifted out . Must be careful if you damage the small jewel That sits on the lower disc that operates the fork. It looks like the first spiral is twisted down and the whole spring is not flat so it's rubbing under the bridge.
But it's hard to be a 100% sure as the pictures have a parallax and looks like balance wheel is off center.
this needs some careful work .
You will have to watch a video of it being done. Even though I have straighten quite a few of the platforms hairspring it is very easy to damaged the fork . Removing the hairspring is one thing straighten it . And reassemble.
I would practice on a junk clock .
To get the feel of delicate work with fine tweezers and a steady hand

 

[craftech]

Thanks Raymond.

I think the balance wheel was tilted because of the different angles I was propping up the movement for better angles and light to get clear photos. It tilts a little when you tilt the movement.

I ended up using compressed air on the hairspring while I held the balance wheel still to get rid of some of the oil.
Then I ran a fine beading needle around in between the hairspring coils to try to separate them more.
Maybe it worked, but I also blew air into the cavity under the toothed escape wheel and dislodged the palette. I managed to get it to engage again though. Pretty scary.

I am making some rookie mistakes. Hopefully nothing permanently damaged. Don't think so because it's running faster than ever. Starting to think I should try and find a shop that knows how to repair these before I destroy it. I looked at a few sites for an exact Swedish platform escapement replacement and couldn't find one so I think repair is probably the best bet if it isn't too far gone.

John

 

[Raymond101]

Yes I would recommend taking it to be done by a pro . Platform are only easier to repair as the whole clock does need dismantling. But yes take it into a repair. I hope you haven't damaged the top pivot with compressed air . That's like using a sledgehammer to push a needle into cotton.

 

[craftech]

Thanks Raymond. That little stunt with the compressed air convinced me.

Thanks to everyone for the interest in helping me out. I truly appreciate it. All of it.

Regards.
John

 

[Daniel Reuben]

Your profile view shows the outer loop of the hairspring tucking in with a smaller radius under the next inner coil so as stated the hairspring needs work: most likely unbending as magnetized or oiled hairsprings can't forcefully do that (but it still can have oil on it or magentism as well) To be clear, the roller jewel is never oiled and that recess into the depths of the escapewheel pinion is not where oil goes either. Most oil has such a great surface tension that blowing isn't going to really remove it. Those parts should really come out and be cleaned (chemically). Or, they could be cleaned with Rodico. Probably no harm overall. The problem is most likely the hairspring still (which by the way is the only thing which will get the clock running as fast as you described). As a matter of education anytime a balance escapement is running that fast (like 10+ minutes an hour - so basically 14,000 or more seconds/day) it is the hairsping to be looked at and moving the regulator isn't going to get the job done. If the hairspring is already jumbled you run the risk of making it worse. This is an advanced tip but worth keeping in mind at least for other readers.

 

[tracerjack]

Perhaps just a miss type, but you have a SWISS platform, not a SWEDISH one. Also looks like the balance staff has a broken pivot. It shouldn’t lean no matter what position the movement is in.

 

[craftech]

Perhaps just a miss type, but you have a SWISS platform, not a SWEDISH one. Also looks like the balance staff has a broken pivot. It shouldn’t lean no matter what position the movement is in.

Yes, Switzerland. Would it work at all with a broken pivot?

I am at a standstill now. I contacted two clock repair shops within 50 miles of where I live (Hudson Valley in New York near Newburgh) and both of them said they wouldn't repair it. I should contact a jeweler or watch repair.

Does anyone know where I could get this repaired? Or find a suitable entire platform escapement for it?

Thanks,
John

 

[tracerjack]

In your last photo, I can now see that the hairspring is tangled. But, kind of irrelevant now. The balance wheel will not work with a broken pivot. If broken, the balance will need to be disassembled and the staff replaced with a new one. Perhaps it can be repivoted, but I'm not sure. Found plenty of suppliers online by typing in "swiss platform escapement". Pretty pricey. Reasonable prices on ebay, but who knows if they work. The clock repairers are correct in telling you to look for a jeweler or watch repair shop. Perhaps contact the local NAWCC chapter and see if they have any recommendations. However, even with a new or repaired platform, you still have a dirty clock movement and mainsprings that are probably dry or sticky with old oil. Unless you plan to learn how to do all this by yourself, I'm pretty sure a professional will need to charge far more than the clock is worth. Still, if it has sentimental value, then the price will be worth it.

 

[craftech]

In your last photo, I can now see that the hairspring is tangled. But, kind of irrelevant now. The balance wheel will not work with a broken pivot. If broken, the balance will need to be disassembled and the staff replaced with a new one. Perhaps it can be repivoted, but I'm not sure. Found plenty of suppliers online by typing in "swiss platform escapement". Pretty pricey. Reasonable prices on ebay, but who knows if they work. The clock repairers are correct in telling you to look for a jeweler or watch repair shop. Perhaps contact the local NAWCC chapter and see if they have any recommendations. However, even with a new or repaired platform, you still have a dirty clock movement and mainsprings that are probably dry or sticky with old oil. Unless you plan to learn how to do all this by yourself, I'm pretty sure a professional will need to charge far more than the clock is worth. Still, if it has sentimental value, then the price will be worth it.

I did look for them, but they don't look identical so the screw holes won't line up I fear. I could count the teeth to narrow it down.
In looking for people who repair there are a lot of complaints filed with the BBB for bad work. I looked up local watch repair shops and they seem to specialize in replacing batteries. I asked one of the grandfather clock repair places that rejected the repair to recommend someone and he couldn't. Really frustrating.
John

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

That balance wheel should certainly not be tilted at that angle, which strongly suggests that the top pivot is indeed broken. It is repairable without replacing the whole platform, but you should really leave well enough alone at your stage of learning. I know that many clock repairers won't touch these, but if you persevere in finding a competent watch repairer they should be able to sort this out for you. We have members here who can do this, I suggest contacting David LaBounty who should be able to advise you.

Sourcing a suitable replacement platform isn't a straightforward task, it has to fit the mounting points on the clock, and the pinion count and the balance frequency also have to match. All this in addition to the fact that decent replacements can be costly.

By the way, this is a pin pallet lever escapement, the escape wheel teeth are a characteristic squared off shape. Many of these fitted in clocks have conical balance staff pivots but this one is apparently of better quality, with more fragile pivots, as I'm afraid you've discovered!

Regards,

Graham

 

[craftech]

Hi John,

That balance wheel should certainly not be tilted at that angle, which strongly suggests that the top pivot is indeed broken. It is repairable without replacing the whole platform, but you should really leave well enough alone at your stage of learning. I know that many clock repairers won't touch these, but if you persevere in finding a competent watch repairer they should be able to sort this out for you. We have members here who can do this, I suggest contacting David LaBounty who should be able to advise you.

Sourcing a suitable replacement platform isn't a straightforward task, it has to fit the mounting points on the clock, and the pinion count and the balance frequency also have to match. All this in addition to the fact that decent replacements can be costly.

By the way, this is a pin pallet lever escapement, the escape wheel teeth are a characteristic squared off shape. Many of these fitted in clocks have conical balance staff pivots but this one is apparently of better quality, with more fragile pivots, as I'm afraid you've discovered!

Regards,

Graham

Thanks Graham,
I'll contact David.

John

 

[JayKosta]

...
That balance wheel should certainly not be tilted at that angle, which strongly suggests that the top pivot is indeed broken. ...

-----------------------------------------
It looks to me like the top support 'arm' for the balance wheel is bent or tilted downward out of position - does it look that way to anyone else, and if so, how would that add to the difficulty or repair.

 

[gmorse]

Hi JayKosta,

It looks to me like the top support 'arm' for the balance wheel is bent or tilted downward out of position - does it look that way to anyone else, and if so, how would that add to the difficulty or repair.

I think that's the angle at which the picture was taken, the balance cock seems to be parallel with the plate as it should be. If the cock is bent, it's usually only slightly and can be straightened with care; this one looks like steel, so unlikely to have become bent.

The picture does show that there's way too much oil everywhere though!

Regards,

Graham

 

[gmorse]

Hi JayKosta,

Just straightened the picture slightly:



Regards,

Graham

 

[JayKosta]

Thanks for the 'adjusted picture' , it helps me see the plate alignment. Also the second-to-last large picture above makes the problem with the top pivot more obvious.

 

[tracerjack]

I think it is the bottom pivot, because the rim of the balance wheel is touching the pin pallet upper plate. The balance wheel would have to sit higher to miss that plate. With the bottom pivot broken, it has fallen down, the plate causing it to tilt.