Newbie and a slipping leaf wire

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Lynsey, Nov 10, 2019.

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  1. Lynsey

    Lynsey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
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    Good Evening Everyone. I have a New Haven Whitney with a sliding wire on the warning wheel. There is really no surface left on the underside to peen over to hold the wire. Does anyone have advice on how to repair this problem? Thanks in advance. Lynsey
     
  2. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
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    Photos? WIllie X
     
  3. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Yep. Pics always help.
     
  4. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
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    Are you talking about a lose warning pin.
     
  5. Lynsey

    Lynsey Registered User

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    I am so sorry about not including a picture, not very cellphone or microphotography fluent. The wire is on the lantern pinion. There are several wires going around and this one wants to fall out of the bottom. I will post a picture asap so there is no confusion and so everyone is on the same page. Thank you!
     
  6. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    The repair of a pinion wire usually requires the wheel to be isolated and the open hole closed with a sharp punch. But yes, please post pics.
     
  7. Lynsey

    Lynsey Registered User

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    There is not enough "meat" for me to use a punch to peen over any metal to hold this pin. Am considering loctite, is that ok? Here is a picture. You can see the empty hole it came out of at about the 2:00 position.

    loose wire.jpg
     
  8. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    I think this is a trundle wire and would go in the pinion. The pinion would be the small gear on the other side of the wheel. What Bugs said in post #6.
    WIllie X
     
  9. Lynsey

    Lynsey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
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    Yes, I can put the wire in position and then shake it a bit and it will fall out again. Just looking for advice on how to put it back in position and have it stay there, but not cause undue stress for if it may have to be replaced in the future. I discovered it was falling down when trying to adjust the strike train/count wheel reassembly.
    The maintenance cam wheel was slipping past the warning wheel and it saw the wire dislodged. Thanks.
     
  10. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    The trundle wire should press in far enough to sink just below the "hole". It doesn't take much to keep it in place. I believe there is enough metal there to stake it in place. There is much disagreement about the use of Loctite and other non-mechanical means of retaining trundles in lantern pinions. Likewise there are differing opinions about whether the trundles should be free to rotate. Loctite obviously will prevent the trundle from rotating. Either all of the trundles should rotate or none should rotate in order that they wear evenly. Please do not solder the trundle in place. Loctite will not hold reliably unless the parts are completely clean and oil free, and there are several kinks of Loctite - the common blue stuff that holds nuts on bolts would not be satisfactory. I would try staking the trundle in place before trying "alternative methods".

    RC
     
  11. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    You will need a special holder, usually called a 'crow's foot' and a good vise to hold this tool. You can make such a tool by sawing a long but thin "V" shaped notch in a 1/8" or 3/16" piece of steel.

    These tools will allow you to adequately support the brass cap that the trundle wire goes in. Once supported you will need a prick punch. (it has a sharp point like a pencil) and a small hammer (2 to 4 ounces) to slightly upset the brass at the top edge of the trundle's hole. One small dent, in just the right place, is all you need. Test by trying to slide the trundle out by gripping it with tweezers between the caps. Note, test all the other trundles too.

    WIllie X
     
  12. Lynsey

    Lynsey Registered User

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    Understood. I will put the Loctite away. I also feel the key here is good illumination and good magnification. I will take it to the shop where I have the vises. I will make sure I support the brass cap and follow your directions. Thanks to you, kind contributors!
     
  13. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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  14. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Check carefully that the trundle that fell out, and that none of the other trundles in that lantern pinion got bent, and that none of the teeth on the driving wheel were damaged. When a pin drops out of a lantern there is often collateral damage, especially lower in the train. You may get lucky.

    RC
     
  15. Lynsey

    Lynsey Registered User

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    #15 Lynsey, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
    I am happy to report that the wire is back in place securely. I checked all of the others as instructed. I put the movement back together and it is on the test stand happily tick tocking. I have learned the basics of beat and balance. I am so grateful for your help. This message board gave me the confidence to start taking apart movements for the first time on October 1st. I have now torn down and reassembled two New Haven Whitneys since then. First one took me 5 attempts to get it right. Second one took me two. And I repaired a wheel! Progress!!!!!

    In this lantern pinion problem, it was when I was trying to get the strike train in synch and noticed the warning wheel was not meshing correctly. That is when I saw that the one wire was hanging a bit low. I do not feel there was any damage as everything looks neat, clean and proper, to me anyways. I was astounded at what little it took to secure that wire in. One strike of the watchmaker's hammer and it was secure. I was in awe. I read your Lantern Pinion Article, thank you Bangster!

    As a newbie, I have noticed that the gong hammers purchased commercially for the New Haven's do not fit the New Haven. The mounting hole is too small, so I had to drill those out to the proper size. Working with the mainsprings is still a bit of a teeth gnashing escapade, but I feel fairly confident and ever wary. My husband is making a new plinth block and throat frame for it and I am going to create a one of a kind glass throat panel. These were 30.00 and 40.00 purchases and I just want to collect NH Whitneys right now, since I am feeling comfortable with them. I am still in awe. Two clocks of the same model, yet very different. Yes, I know, they may have been butchered by someone previous to me, but all in all, great fun and learning experiences. To any newbies reading....just go for it, you will love it. Thanks again to all of you. Lynsey
     
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  16. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    I, on the other hand, have no problem with red Loctite on a lantern pinion. I have not seen it fail, and you can clean the parts quite adequately in place with a very brief squirt of Walmart or other inexpensive spray carburetor/choke cleaner, which will dissolve and wash away all dirt and grease. Red (permanent) Loctite can be removed if you heat it, and I always like to tell my customers that our friends at Harley-Davidson use it to pin their motorcycle crankshafts together.

    One of the few certainties I can express here is that trundles should _not_ rotate in their holes. The reason is that the holes wear, and when they do there is no alternative but to somehow manufacture an entire new lantern pinion whose correct diameter will be impossible to determine. I've run into this condition only once in a Waterbury crystal regulator, but it was crippling and I never was able to get it right before the customer, an antique dealer, accused me of inventing false problems with his clock, leaving me with no alternative but to return it without further work.

    Mark Kinsler
     
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  17. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Some trundles are designed to turn. The ones in question will sometimes turn and sometimes not. They are not intended to turn by design.

    Nice work, Lynsey! Once you've been bitten, you're addicted for life :D
     
  18. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    There are opinions about whether trundles should turn or not but I have seen no corroborated factual information (original manufacturer's specifications etc.) one way or the other except where the maker advertised "rolling pinions" which were constructed somewhat differently than the one being discussed. When the trundles do not rotate they develop a flat spot where they contact the gear teeth. When they rotate there will be a "bright spot" where contact has taken place 360 degrees. I have not kept score, but I believe that of the hundreds of lantern pinions I have had come in the number of the ones that turn and the ones that do not are about even. Unknown is whether the ones that do not turn have always been that way or if at some point they got stuck. The vast majority of lantern pinions that I have repaired were ones that did not turn and had flat spot wear. I've never encountered a lantern shroud where the holes were badly worn and there is a good reason. When trundles do rotate they do not spin 360 degrees every time the pinion rotates but more like over time they somewhat randomly shift position so the wear is evenly distributed. If the pinion to wheel depthing is correct there is very little rotational force applied to the trundles. My observation has been that where the trundles show signs of rotating it is less likely that I will need to rebuild that pinion.

    All of which brings us to the question of what to do when repairing a lantern pinion. From a mechanical standpoint it should be clear that all the trundles need to be the same size and they should all either rotate or be stationary in order to wear evenly. A repaired lantern where the trundles are locked in place (by whatever means) and do not roll will last for many years, especially if good quality pinion wire is used. A repaired pinion where the trundles are free to roll arguably will last longer but none of us will likely be around to see either wear out. Staking or knurling are the means that the original makers used to keep lantern trundles in place, generally one cannot go wrong by using those methods during repair. That isn't to say that "alternative methods" won't achieve the desired outcome, or that there may be cases where an "alternative method" isn't the best choice.

    RC
     
  19. Lynsey

    Lynsey Registered User

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    Very eloquently stated, RC. Thank you for your input. Thank you, Shutterbug for the kind words. I guess with any old project, once you open the can, no telling how many worms will eventually fall out and bite you before you can get them all back in again!
     

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