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New York Watch Co. precursors to Hampden.

Greg Frauenhoff

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Updated the list with a few more #s


6 - Springfield
73 - "
116 - "
125 - " (plate over winding wheels)
163 - "
170 - "
224 - "
226 - "
236 - "
244 - "
274 - William Romp
285 - Springfield
288 - "
293 - "
306 - "
309 - "
310 - "
337 - "
349 - "
667 - "
708 - "
901 - "
978 - "
1012 - "
1022 - "
1040 - "
1876 - L. M. Rogers
4075 - Wm. H. Hansell (PL)
4119 - Homer Foot
4151 - Benedict Brothers (PL)
4249 - (unsigned mvt, DS New York Watch Co. dial)
4269 - New York Watch Co.
4270 - Duhme & Co. (PL, no visible s/n on top plate, numbered internally)
4355 - New York Watch Co.
4432 - New York Watch Co.
4507 - "
4541 - "
4549 - E. H. Huntington (PL)
4551 - William H. Hansell (PL)
4564 - New York Watch Co.
4570 - Homer Foot
4638 - "New York"
4681 - Eaton & Canfield (PL)
4702 - (PL)
4730 - Homer Foot
4789 - Homer Foot
4814 - "
4819 - "
4880 - "
4892 - "
4920 - John L. King
4944 - Homer Foot
4987 - Homer Foot
5020 - Homer Foot
5076 - "
5077 - "
5091 - "
5135 - "
5192 - "
5247 - "
5266 - Crosby, Mason & Foss (PL)
5266? - Collier & Unger (?) (PL)
5273 - John L. King
5282 - "
5347 - "
5350 - John L. King
5376 - Homer Foot
5391 - Homer Foot
5403 - John L. King
5418 - "
5473 - Ball, Black & Co, New York (signed mvt and dial, with 18K Ball, Black & Co. hunting case with matching serial number)
5485 - Homer Foot
5492 - Homer Foot
5573 - J. A. Briggs, Springfield, Mass.
5622 - John L. King
5627 - Homer Foot
5641 - John L. King
5646 - "
5649 - "
5650 - "
5652 - Homer Foot
5694 - Homer Foot
5721 - A. I. Robinson (PL)
5721 - A.J. Robinson, Providence RI
5738 - John L. King
5778 - John L. King
5786 - Benedict Bros, 171 Broadway, New York
5794 - John L. King
5846 - "
5861 - W. W. Wattles (PL)
5886 - A. J. Robinson (PL)
5906 - John L. King
5909 - "
5939 - "
5951 - Homer Foot (Hampden Watch Co. Arabic dial, probably finished by Hampden)
5969 - L. C. Voute (PL)
5999 - John L. King
6003 - Albert Clark
6012 - Albert Clark
6050 - H. G. Norton
6051 - H. G. Norton
6076 - Homer Foot
6079 - Albert Clark
6088 - H. G. Norton
6101 - 6110 (blank) (run in Ziebell's compilation)
6149 - H.G. Norton
6151 - Albert Clark
6152 - "
6166 - Benedict Brothers (PL)
6208 - H. G. Norton
6232 - H. G. Norton
6303 - "
6386 - Albert Clark
6394 - Albert Clark
6396 - "
6463 - H. G. Norton
6477 - H. G. Norton
6488 - " (unsigned dial)
6494 - H. G. Norton
6512 - "
6525 - (PL)
6525 - G.W. Kahlhoefer, Boston Mass. (marked mvt)
6527 - H. G. Norton
6536 - "
6575 - "
6592 - "
6624 - "
6632 - "
6656 - Albert Clark
6681 - Albert Clark
6702 - H. G. Norton
6718 - "
6728 - "
6749 - "
6787 - Albert Clark
6863 - "
6893 - "
6907 - H. G. Norton
6907 - Frank W. Harmon, Springfield Mass. (marked mvt)
6920 - "
7007 - 7067 Norton (run in Ziebell's compilation)
7032 - John L. King
7036 - "
7049 - PL
7056 - Albert Clark
7064 - "
7081 - "
7101 - 7199 Norton (run in Ziebell's compilation)
7133 - John L. King
7144 - H. G. Norton (dial signed Stephen H. Norman)
7231 - 7242 Clark (run in Ziebell's compilation)
7231 - Albert Clark
7251 - 7400 Clark (run in Ziebell's compilation)
7255 - Homer Foot
7274 - Albert Clark
7299 - Albert Clark
7358 - Homer Foot
7401 - 8000 (blank) (run in Ziebell's compilation)
8011 - 8040 (blank) (run in Ziebell's compilation)
8041 - 8080 (blank) (run in Ziebell's compilation)
8081 - 8480 King (run in Ziebell's compilation)
8082 - John L. King
8386 - Albert Clark
8434 - John L. King
8439 - "
8455 - "
8481 - 8500 (blank) (run in Ziebell's compilation)
8501 - 9000 Foot (run in Ziebell's compilation)
8886 - Albert Clark
9006 - H. G. Norton (stem wind)
9011 - 9020 (blank) (run in Ziebell's compilation)
9021 - 9030 (blank) (run in Ziebell's compilation)
9031 - 9040 King (run in Ziebell's compilation)
9040 - John L. King
9072 - E. W. Bond (Hampden dial, "B" by serial number)
9076 - E. W. Bond (Gilt, Hampden Watch Co. dial)
9109 - E. W. Bond
9118 - E. W. Bond (Hampden Watch Co. dial)
9119 - " (NY dial)
9121 - 9300 (blank) (run in Ziebell's compilation)
9127 - E. W. Bond (SS New York Watch Co. dial)
9130 - E. W. Bond
9140 - E. W. Bond
9144 - E. W. Bond (Hampden Watch Co. dial)
9162 - "
9191 - T&E Dickinson Buffalo NY (Hampden dial)
9192 - Whitcomb & Ball (PL)
9198 - E. W. Bond (Hampden Watch Co. dial)
9204 - "
9206 - E. W. Bond
9213 - E. W. Bond
9215 - E. W. Bond (Hampden Watch Co. dial)
9220 - E. W. Bond (Hampden Watch Co. dial)
9231 - H.M. Carpenter, Minneapolis Minn (Hampden dial)
9232 - T & E Dickinson (PL, Hampden Watch Co. dial)
9234 - E. W. Bond
9242 - E. W. Bond (Hampden Watch Co. dial)
9245 - E. W. Bond
9256 - E. W. Bond
9268 - Woltz Bros. & Co. (PL)
9282 - E. W. Bond (Hampden Watch Co. dial)
9291 - E. W. Bond (Dial has monogram J. C. P., possibly for John C. Perry)
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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Name census:

Bond - 22
Clark - 21
Foot - 27
King - 28
New York - 7
Norton - 24
Springfield - 25
Private label - 30
Other - 2 (one numbered but unsigned, one unsigned and unnumbered)

It's rather surprising how few "New York Watch Co." movements there are.
 

PatH

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Greg, and all of the other contributors, thank you for your work to compile, update and share this valuable information. A great example of the power of crowdsourcing!
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Rare NY Watch Co. product line from J. T. Scott & Co., 1876, price list (original in my collection).

This piece is very important for a number of reasons. (1) It lists the entire product line of the time with prices (probably "keystone"), (2) it mentions some grades as being made in both 16s and 18s, (3) some pendant (stem) winding, and (4) the George Walker grade.

I believe that Ziebell might have misidentified the George Walker grade in the inventory records as "Guy" but this is only a guess on my part. In any event, I've never seen one.

View attachment 525131

Does anyone have a 16s 3/4 plate keywinder they could show me? Are any of those above 16s? The list in the quote says the King and Foot could be had in 16 and 18. I wont be buying anything anytime soon(with one exception) , but it seems to me that a 16s would be the thing to look for!

All the ones I've been able to confirm are 18s and my curiosity has the best of me.

Thanks for any consideration!
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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Does anyone have a 16s 3/4 plate keywinder they could show me? Are any of those above 16s? The list in the quote says the King and Foot could be had in 16 and 18. I wont be buying anything anytime soon(with one exception) , but it seems to me that a 16s would be the thing to look for!

All the ones I've been able to confirm are 18s and my curiosity has the best of me.

Thanks for any consideration!
Rick,

Can't recall seeing a 16s, but it's also possible that I've had one in my hands and not noticed the size difference. I suspect a photo isn't going to help much, unless there are differences between the 16s and 18s other than plate diameter.

Good luck. I hope you find one.

Greg
 

luvsthetick

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Hmm.. maybe someday
According to price list Greg published the 'George Walker' is a size 16. When you find one you will know you have what you want.

And by-the-way, you are going to need two since they are available in both nickel and gilt.

EDIT Noticed you said key wind, sorry.
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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Bila

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'George Walker' is a size 16
I think you will be very surprised if you get hold of one and are expecting it to be an actual 16 Size, although the price list says this, it will be what is normally referred to as a 17 size (in dial plate only), as to my knowledge all the 3/4 plate NYWCo's are:)
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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It could be a cut of a real mvt, but in the Hernick/Arnold book there are no similar examples with nearby serial numbers.

It's also possible that someone modified a cut of a Bond mvt and added a "1" to the end of the serial number.

Who knows. I don't.
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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Using a cheap wooden ruler that was handy I could see no significant difference in the pillar plate diameters for #285 (3/4 plate Springfield), #4564 (3/4 plate) and 14286 (full plate). They all measured 45.2 mm (by my eyes with a cheap wooden ruler). Of course, the 3/4 plate mvts are thinner.
 

Rick Hufnagel

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I've been fixated on trying to figure out these 16s key and stemwinders for a little while.

In Greg's 1876 J.T. Scott Movement list with great detail and descriptions, we see that the J.L. King 16s stemwinder is 17 jewels and adjusted to heat and cold, also listed as "Improved". For the record there is no mention of gilt or nickel. I expected a gilt movement looking like a smaller version of the 3/4 plate keywinder, with a stemwind attachment of some sort. The keywind "King" comes in 15 and 17 jewels. The earliest advertisement I've seen says 15, the rest say 17. Caps on the escape make the 17, no center jewels.

While going through these awesome price indicator books, in the 1980 on page 58, there he is! A 16 Size J.L. King Stemwinder. It is the same model as the E.W. Bond! The difference from the Bond is that King is lacking the center Jewels, and is not marked adjusted. Way different from what was pictured in my head. Another mystery solved. Probably old news to some, but exciting to me.

I think this helps get us a step closer to this elusive "George Walker" Ill bet when and if one turns up, it will be this same model. Still haven't got a clue about the 16s keywinders.

compared Greg's list to mine again, and have a few to add:
4266 Collier & Lu Gar
4937 Homer Foot
6962 R.P. Fowler, Agamaw Mass, June 1st 1872 (17J)
 
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johnbscott

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Not sure where to put this, but I have just completed the restoration of my New York Watch Co 3/4 plate watch 5738 marked John L King. It took me days of work and it was not easy. Re-case, matching of screws, reinstatement of stop works, complete re-poise and re-adjust in positions and a good clean and oil. Photos to follow.

This has been my second NYWCo 3/4 plate restoration, the first being that of 5500 described, here:
https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/please-show-the-most-recent-addition-to-your-collection.165253/page-14 .

These are impressive watches but one must be keen and well-resourced to take on the restoration of such items, given their fifteen decades of prior use and abuse.

NYWC 18s 5738 dial..JPG
NYWC 18s 5738 movt..JPG
 

watchbob

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FYI
measured some 3/4 plates - Norton 6520 & 6705 both measure 44.2 mm across dial plate & two others Wm. H Hansell #4551 & # 4420 15J New York Watch Co marked both measure 45.7mm & attached pic of 4420 that has smaller unmarked dial on it. You can see the extra space on outer edge
Others not on the list John L King 17J 5401 & New York Watch Co marked 4504
also #6920 is H G Norton. DSC06484.JPG
 

Rick Hufnagel

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This is 6829, Homer Foot which means 15 jewels and adjusted to temp.

A few oddities about this movement.

The little "A" under the serial number. I'm assuming it's for adjused but that's just a guess.
20210404_134707.jpg

The dial is unsigned.... Or at least it was sold unsigned. The original New York Watch Co signature has been buffed off like some early Hampdens. The dial appears original. I cannot get a good photo of the buffed mark. Someone had previously filed this case like a madman, so I didn't have a problem adding another slot to it for the stem wind. Those hands were obviously not original, but they're awesome!
20210404_134803.jpg

It has an Abbott's Stemwind conversion. The plate with the patent is actually on the inside of the watch. Just thought that was neat. It's a nicely working setup, except I do not like how the extra gear by the canon pinion is always engaged.
20210403_180155.jpg 20210329_184508.jpg

I'm thrilled to finally get ahold of a nice running 3/4 plate movement. The Homer Foot is a solid grade! It used to have a stopworks which was probably removed when converted to S.W. Its a wee bit larger than 18s, so I thought the display case would be the best way to protect it instead of messing with an 18s hunter.

The original hook for the mainspring in the barrel had been removed and a T end spring used. I've noticed this more and more on watches that seem to have been finished later. I realize this could have been done at any point. The original NY movements used a hold end spring.

Any thoughts appreciated. Have a good one!
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Congrats Rick!
Thanks!

One last interesting thing about Homer Foot #6829 in the last post. Notice the hairspring stud and the balance cock. It's different than the earlier NYWCo movements. 6829 has a standard round hairspring stud that mounts to the balance cock with a retaining screw threaded into the side of the balance cock.

Compare it to these next pictures of J.L. King #5408 shown here

The hairspring stud is quite a contraption. You loosen this screw and slide it over a prong on the balance cock.
20210404_212259.jpg 20210404_212346.jpg 20210404_212455.jpg
What does this mean? I dunno... Just interesting and wanted to point it out. A quick glance around reveals Homer Foot movements with both attachments.
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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John,
It will come alive again. Just maybe not for a long time, or maybe not by my hands! Haha

This group of watches seems very interesting. Between private labels, plain, and ones marked NY, they seem to match (with a few outliers).

In my observation sheet, singling out the 3/4 plate movements, 10% come equipped with double sunk dials. This includes the very early Stemwinders.

If you take out the early stemwinders, which is the most common place to find a DS dial (by the numbers so far) I only have three DS dials out of 70ish 3/4 plate serial numbers noted, and they are all on watches of this grade, from this general group of serial numbers.

My list is much smaller than Greg's, with 93ish serial numbers observed in all 3/4 plate models.

The movement, upon initial examination, is a very plain 15 jewel movement. Not as nice as the Homer Foot, but surely nothing of poor quality. That might not be a good comparison though, as I think the Homer Foot shown above is quite a few years later.

New Castle is an hour north of home, and about 10 minutes to the city center from where we have chapter 37 meetings. The whole combination of the features of this movement made it impossible to pass up.
 
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johnbscott

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Rick, your double sunk dial for 4157 certainly caught my eye. I wonder whether that was special for the private label.

Of my nine NYWCo watches (only two are 3/4 plate movements), one watch is a private label (47023 for John R. Knight, Boston) Fred Billings grade but it has the standard single sunk dial marked New York Watch Co (as have all of the other eight watches).

Having the local vender connection for the watch goes a long way towards having provenance. Wouldn't it be lovely to let 4157 tick its way along Washington Street, in New Castle? I am sure that it would not be for the first time.
 
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