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New York Standard Watch Company

Nathan Moore

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NewYorkStandardWatchCo.-97.jpg

The Model K Codes

As others have referenced, the Model K movements are marked with a code on the pillar plate that signifies certain characteristics. This was previously summarized by Bob Olson in a brief production history of the company. While mostly correct, I believe there are notable inconsistencies in what has now been accepted.

XX#####
The two digits represent the movement configuration.
10: Open Face
20: Hunting

This is consistent. However, after studying other New York Standard grade classifications, I believe that only the first digit represents the configuration, but since the first digit in the code is always followed by a “0,” this point does not matter in practicality.

##X####
Mr. Olson reports the next digit represents the hand style, “1” for spade and “2” for moon. This is somewhat true. However, based on recorded observations, I believe this digit reflects some other trait that is incidentally paired with these hand styles. Additionally, only the 12-Size movements seem to align with this convention. And even then, both moon and kite hand styles are paired with the “2.” I have not yet been able to derive an alternative trait for this code. Interestingly, all the “2” digits I have recorded have been 7-Jewel movements. The “1” digit is mixed with 7-Jewel and 15-Jewel.

###XX##
The next two digits indeed represent the size, as Mr. Olson reports.
16: 16-Size
12: 12-Size
10: 10-Size

#####XX
The last two digits have been assumed to represent the numeral style of the dial. However, enough observations have been recorded to refute this claim. Identical dial styles have been logged with different codes and very different styles with the same code. There appears to be no relationship between the last two digits and the dial other than a loose trend progression. For that reason, I believe these digits may be related to production sequence instead, possibly the year of manufacture.

Recording more observations of the Model K watches and various attributes may provide additional clarity. If you happen to have watches that have not already been added, especially if they contradict the above information, please feel free to post images.
 

Jerry Treiman

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As a side note notice the similarities of the Howard model 11 movement.
That is because both movements were designed by Joseph Freund who worked for Keystone (owner of New York Standard and Howard at this time). For more information about Freund and his design work you should read Arthur Borg's article on the 10-size Howard in the August 1967 Bulletin. As an NAWCC member you have access to back issues on line.
 

musicguy

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I was looking at this Sears Catalog from 1897 and saw a few NYS's on the bottom right.

1608912721792.png



Rob
 
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jagrieff

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Nathan,

Here are my last New York Standards - two complete chronographs and 2 parts movements.

IMG_2526.jpeg IMG_2527.jpeg IMG_2528.jpeg IMG_2529.jpeg

Interestingly, the 16 size parts movement does not have a serial number on either side of the movement. I hope that these pictures are useful to you. Good luck with your project!

Jeff Grieff
 

Nathan Moore

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Nathan,

Here are the movements from my movement boneyard:
View attachment 629160 View attachment 629161 View attachment 629162 View attachment 629163 View attachment 629164

I have more chronographs movements still to come.

Jeff Grieff
Nathan,

Here are my last New York Standards - two complete chronographs and 2 parts movements.

View attachment 629333 View attachment 629334 View attachment 629335 View attachment 629336

Interestingly, the 16 size parts movement does not have a serial number on either side of the movement. I hope that these pictures are useful to you. Good luck with your project!

Jeff Grieff

Jeff - Thank you! These are all extremely helpful.

A few quick questions, when you have a moment:

#3313898: Is this one fitted with a "New Era" or "The New Era" dial?
#7861036: Is this one fitted with a dial that matches the "Wilton" name?
#8100393: Is this one fitted with a signed dial?
#3256220: The glare on this one makes it difficult to see if the movement is marked at all (other than the serial). Is that true? Does this one have a "Columbia" dial?

Your 16-Size Chronograph should have a serial number along the edge of the top plate under the spring - starts with "GC."

Thanks again for posting!
 
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jagrieff

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Nathan,

In answer to your questions:

#3313898: this movement has no dial and, upon closer examination, is # 3313698. Sorry - I was working too quickly!
#7861036: this one does have a Wilton dial (picture below)
#8100393: no dial
#3256220: no dial and no marking on movement other than the serial number

Finally, another example of perhaps working too quickly, I missed the number under the spring. The serial number of the 16 size chronograph is #GG018285.
IMG_2534.jpeg
I'll let you know if I find any others tucked away in forgotten corners of my shop.

Jeff Grieff
 
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Nathan Moore

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Nathan,

In answer to your questions:

#3313898: this movement has no dial and, upon closer examination, is # 3313698. Sorry - I was working too quickly!
#7861036: this one does have a Wilton dial (picture below)
#8100393: no dial
#3256220: no dial and no marking on movement other than the serial number

Finally, another example of perhaps working too quickly, I missed the number under the spring. The serial number of the 16 size chronograph is #GG018285.
View attachment 629629
I'll let you know if I find any others tucked away in forgotten corners of my shop.

Jeff Grieff
Thanks, Jeff. I appreciate you digging into those again to answer my questions. Extremely helpful!
 

Nathan Moore

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Here's one of mine if you're collecting serial numbers. 165021
View attachment 630644
And here's an Chronograph flyback Excelsior 11 Jewels. Many of these are 7 jewels.
View attachment 630645 View attachment 630646
Thanks, Dave. Very nice examples. The 18-Size watch is a first issue of the Model 4 "Standard." These were reintroduced under the Grade No. 31 classification in 1894. The lack of Hasting's patent jewel bearing on the upper balance jewel indicates it is c.1891 or earlier. Great Excelsior Chronograph. Thanks for contributing!
 

Nathan Moore

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Total Production Estimates

One of the more interesting findings while analyzing New York Standard production is that the 30-Million estimated count often cited is probably overstating actual production. Currently, the established serialized runs account for approximately 12 million movements (may change with new information). When including possible production for unserialized movements and duplicated numbers on the Model K movements, the actual production tally is probably closer to 15-20 million. While the company did mark movements with the same serial number, these were still sequential (except the Model K) and have been accounted for in these production estimates.

Unfortunately, short of discovering factory documentation, there will never be a way to determine the production total with a satisfactory level of certainty.
 
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jringo8769

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well here are my little collection of these so far
not sure if they are common or not

i have shown this one before it is a standard size 12 pocket watch and 7 jewel movement
i am working on finding the correct center case for this as it is now gold and want it all silver like the covers
the case covers is a Philadelphia Watch case and Movt is a 1011221
i got as a non runner and with just a little work keeps great time after getting off the front where the hands were hitting

here is my next one it is also a size 12 and this one is beautifully engraved and hands are quite nice too
i am working on a case from a dear friend who has offered me a complete NOS Engraved one
i can not wait to get this one all back together
movt is a 7 jewel and number 1021224

then i found this one too
they are quite cool to find all the detailed dial ones
it is also engraved dial and it is size 16 and it is 15 jewels
this one is incoming to me
movt is 1011620 i think
i think i have found a NOS engraved case for that one too
love these engraved ones for some reason
and love silver/nickel colors too
thank you all for this great place and love this thread
stay safe out there
God Bless,John
pocket watch pics 006.JPG pocket watch pics 003.JPG pocket watch pics 007.JPG pocket watch pics 005.JPG pocket watch pics 008.JPG pocket watch pics 010.JPG pocket watch pics 012.JPG ny standard pocket watch engraved 5.jpg ny standard pocket watch engraved 6.jpg
 

Nathan Moore

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Dug up another from the depths of the movement chest.

Up to you to figure out that serial number Nathan lol. Sorry. I can put it under the scope later if needed. New phone takes super nice pictures, so it's pretty clear in the uploads.

Its 16s, 7 jewels. BD213035:???:

View attachment 636760 View attachment 636761
Thanks, Rick. Yes, #BD213035 is correct for this movement (Grade 95, 16-Size, 7 Jewels). The "BD" prefix was used on both the Grade 1595 (15-Jewels, Finger Train Bridge) and the Grade 95 (7 Jewels, Standard 3/4 Train Bridge). The production ratio between the two grades is approximately 8:1, favoring the Grade 95. This one has been logged accordingly. Thanks!
 

Nathan Moore

NAWCC Business
Dec 29, 2011
471
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well here are my little collection of these so far
not sure if they are common or not

i have shown this one before it is a standard size 12 pocket watch and 7 jewel movement
i am working on finding the correct center case for this as it is now gold and want it all silver like the covers
the case covers is a Philadelphia Watch case and Movt is a 1011221
i got as a non runner and with just a little work keeps great time after getting off the front where the hands were hitting

here is my next one it is also a size 12 and this one is beautifully engraved and hands are quite nice too
i am working on a case from a dear friend who has offered me a complete NOS Engraved one
i can not wait to get this one all back together
movt is a 7 jewel and number 1021224

then i found this one too
they are quite cool to find all the detailed dial ones
it is also engraved dial and it is size 16 and it is 15 jewels
this one is incoming to me
movt is 1011620 i think
i think i have found a NOS engraved case for that one too
love these engraved ones for some reason
and love silver/nickel colors too
thank you all for this great place and love this thread
stay safe out there
God Bless,John
View attachment 637064 View attachment 637065 View attachment 637066 View attachment 637067 View attachment 637068 View attachment 637069 View attachment 637070 View attachment 637071 View attachment 637072
Thanks for posting images, John.

More research is needed on these Model K watches and every bit of information helps.
 
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jringo8769

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Thanks for posting images, John.

More research is needed on these Model K watches and every bit of information helps.
well i am honored to be able to help in any way
these are so interesting and love the different versions
stay safe out there
God Bless,John
do we know what cases where used on these ?
i see many different ones with many different brands of cases
 

Nathan Moore

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Dec 29, 2011
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Nathan, I don't know if this one will help but here is my NY Standard 'worm drive'.
View attachment 637403 View attachment 637404 View attachment 637405
Thanks, Darrah. Lovely example. The signed dial is desirable on these.

I do not have any observations recorded below 16,000 for the worm-drive escapement watches, leading me to believe they commenced production with 15,001 or 16,001. If true, your watch is very early in the company production. Thanks for posting!
 

Nathan Moore

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Dec 29, 2011
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Thank you to everyone who contributed images and information for the New York Standard research project.

Over the span of the last several months, a serial lookup engine was able to be compiled using more than 1,500 observations. Fortunately, New York Standard generally reserved large serial blocks for production, making the process of classification and segmenting runs easier than some manufacturers.

One of the more interesting results of the research was a better method to estimate the year of production for certain movements prior to 1910. Hastings’ patented “jewel bearing” was implemented in different ways over the span of production and can be used as a guide for estimating the time of production with more accuracy than the common serial number extrapolation technique.

1887-1890: Screw-Set Upper Balance Jewel (Before Hastings’ Patent Jewel Bearing)
1890-c.1904: Double-Slit Jewel Bearing
c.1905-c.1908: Single-Slit Jewel Bearing
After c.1908: No Slits

There are elements that demand further exploration, such as the identical codes applied to the Model K movements. Additionally, details related to the closure of the Jersey City factory and the termination of production remain fuzzy. New York Standard watches continued to be sold under the Keystone name into the mid-1930s. However, it appears that Keystone consolidated watch production at the Riverside location in 1921 and attempted to utilize the factory in Jersey City to manufacture screws and other small parts.

Due to the short-lived practice of unserialized movements around c.1909 and the Model K movements lacking distinct (visible) serial numbers, total production is difficult to estimate. However, the company likely manufactured around 15-20 million watches in addition to its production of cyclometers and electric clocks.

Please feel free to post any new findings related to New York Standard on this thread.
 

Steven Thornberry

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Recording more observations of the Model K watches and various attributes may provide additional clarity. If you happen to have watches that have not already been added, especially if they contradict the above information, please feel free to post images.
I recently picked up this Model K, Grade 1553, a 15 Jewel, size 10. Of interest is the dial, which says Keystone Standard. As Nathan said above in post 71,
New York Standard watches continued to be sold under the Keystone name into the mid-1930s.
Nathan's PWDB also has at least one other example of a watch with a "Keystone Standard" dial.

New York Standard Watch Co. Grade 1553 Watch #1011023 - 10s, 15j - Uploaded by pocketwatch101 (pocketwatchdatabase.com)

The dial on mine, however, doesn't seem a great fit to the case (perhaps the case or dial is not original?). And, the hands, well there is a style for every taste. None of the three are a match for the other two. Still and all, I like it.

Case Back.jpg Dial.jpg Movement.jpg
 

hawk613

Registered User
Aug 21, 2010
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Thank you to everyone who contributed images and information for the New York Standard research project.

Over the span of the last several months, a serial lookup engine was able to be compiled using more than 1,500 observations. Fortunately, New York Standard generally reserved large serial blocks for production, making the process of classification and segmenting runs easier than some manufacturers.

One of the more interesting results of the research was a better method to estimate the year of production for certain movements prior to 1910. Hastings’ patented “jewel bearing” was implemented in different ways over the span of production and can be used as a guide for estimating the time of production with more accuracy than the common serial number extrapolation technique.

1887-1890: Screw-Set Upper Balance Jewel (Before Hastings’ Patent Jewel Bearing)
1890-c.1904: Double-Slit Jewel Bearing
c.1905-c.1908: Single-Slit Jewel Bearing
After c.1908: No Slits

There are elements that demand further exploration, such as the identical codes applied to the Model K movements. Additionally, details related to the closure of the Jersey City factory and the termination of production remain fuzzy. New York Standard watches continued to be sold under the Keystone name into the mid-1930s. However, it appears that Keystone consolidated watch production at the Riverside location in 1921 and attempted to utilize the factory in Jersey City to manufacture screws and other small parts.

Due to the short-lived practice of unserialized movements around c.1909 and the Model K movements lacking distinct (visible) serial numbers, total production is difficult to estimate. However, the company likely manufactured around 15-20 million watches in addition to its production of cyclometers and electric clocks.

Please feel free to post any new findings related to New York Standard on this thread.
Hi Nathan.....I just found out about this study of the New York Standard watch co and want to say THANK YOU for your FANTASTIC work ! I have been interested in and collecting NY Standard's for some time and also think they deserve more attention being they played such a large part of American watch making history. If you were to publish a book with your research of them I would be first in line to buy it !

I also didn't know until now that you are the curator of the Pocket Watch Data Base. (I am a yearly contributor and have been following your site since early on. (hawk613)) I think your site is the best thing that ever happened for a centralized pocket watch information source and truly believe you are some kind SUPER MAN to be able to stay on top of, collect, and organize all that information!
Your contributing to American history (as I'm sure you already know) and again I THANK YOU for your invaluable work !!!

I have some interesting(I think) NY Standards including worm drive, a couple of convertibles and others. One movement appears to be a convertible but doesn't have the cutouts to do it :???: Would you like me to upload pics and would they still help your research? If so....would it be easier to upload one pic at a time or group several in one post??
Again....THANK YOU !
 
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musicguy

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I think your site is the best thing that ever happened for a centralized pocket watch information source and truly believe you are some kind SUPER MAN
I don't want to spoil it but he's actually Clark Kent, nathan is just a pseudonym.
just kidding

The PWD is a great reasource



Rob
 

Nathan Moore

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I have some interesting(I think) NY Standards including worm drive, a couple of convertibles and others. One movement appears to be a convertible but doesn't have the cutouts to do it :???: Would you like me to upload pics and would they still help your research? If so....would it be easier to upload one pic at a time or group several in one post??
Again....THANK YOU !
It is always great to hear that the all the work has been beneficial to people. Thanks for your kind words.

Yes! Please feel free to post your interesting New York Standards here in the thread. This will be helpful for further refinement and documentation. One post per watch would probably be the best way to organize them.

Thanks!
 
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hawk613

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Here is a 16s convertible verified with cutouts to convert. 15 jewels I think but haven't had the dial off to know for sure. Open face configuration with original case I believe.
Yea....I know it's filthy but it'll look and run like new when I'm done with it. Some day lol :emoji_thinking: DSC02237.JPG
 

hawk613

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Here is a 7 jewel convertible verified with cutouts. It's in a sidewinder configuration and again with the original case I believe because it's about identical to the other one except nickle instead of gold filled and came from a different place. Note it doesn't have the regulator bow spring like the 15 ? jewel and no screw holes for one. Yea....I know....one day lol:emoji_thinking: DSC02238.JPG
 

hawk613

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Now here is possibly an anomaly ?? It's a 7 Jewel 1st model that's NOT a convertible. I thought they all were....or were supposed to be. I included two extra angles to show there are no cutouts for the winding arbor to convert. So if you see a 1st model movement, know that it might not be a convertible if you can't see the cutouts. Neat stuff huh?
If you want me to pull one of the other 1st model movements out of the case to show the winding arbor cutouts to convert, let me know Nathan:)
DSC02241.JPG DSC02242.JPG DSC02243.JPG
 
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hawk613

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Not sure what model this is ?? It's an open face like my worm drive. I think it was made shortly after the Standard model. The "Price Guide" says there were 52000 worm drives made and this is serial #53109. If the 1st Model is the convertible then would this be the 2nd Model ??
Also interesting is the winding mechanism looks identical to the worm drive's. Compare to the pic uploaded by darrahg showing the winding mech of his worm drive model. His has #43 stamped on the dial side plate and this has #60 stamped about the same place. Looks like a lot of the parts would be interchangeable. What do you think Nathan??
I like that this is Damaskeened AND gilded. Watches that are both look really nice to me. Should look nice when it's cleaned up.

DSC02250.JPG DSC02251.JPG
 
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hawk613

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Here is an open face 4th Model I believe. There is no serial number on the back plate and it almost looks like a watchmaker (or someone) skimmed over it with an end mill. I can't feel any ridges so it was very precise if that was the case so I don't know :???:
Could the serial# be under the dial Nathan ? If you want me to look....let me know.
DSC02252.JPG DSC02253.JPG
 
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hawk613

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Just for comparison...the open face 4th model on the left and the model (3rd ??) made after the standard model on the right.
They are both open face stem up as can be seen in the pic. Note the balance cock is pointing the opposite direction on the design of the "New Era" 4th model on the left. I never noticed that until now....dummy me :???: lol
DSC02254.JPG
 

hawk613

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Ok ....now for some fancy dial NY Standards. This is one of my nicest! I think it's the 5th model ?? and either 11 or 15 Jewels but again....I haven't had the dial off.....Yet lol Probably original case...no extra screw marks. I wonder how many of these are left? I know some collectors would pull the NY Standard to put there more expensive movement in. I have an original 7 Jewel Trenton that's Damaskeened AND Gilded in a nice case like this too. I hope they survive intact (as historic pieces) after I'm gone !

I have to admit I've benefited from those that take watches apart and sell their parts on eBay to make more money (and still do sometimes) but I don't think I would ever do it myself unless part of the watch is screwed up. I like to keep (nice)original watches intact if they can be repaired/restored. Please note I'm NOT bashing anyone....that's just me. Well I think that's enough for tonight....will add more later. Thank you to all those who have posted and helped Nathan. I'm happy to see NY Standards get the attention they deserve as a major player in U.S. watch making history.

DSC02249.JPG DSC02246.JPG DSC02247.JPG
 
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pmurphy

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New York Standard grade 97 model K 16s 7j circa 1921ser. #126210

My first "real" pocket watch (American antique/vintage) which I acquired last May as I'm still pretty new to the hobby. While I understand it being "low end" I was amazed by the quality and craftsmanship that went into the watch. Antique American pocket watches in general are really a bargain and also I'm not just buying a watch but I'm also buying history.

20210501_101334.jpg 20220117_164139.jpg
 

hawk613

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Aug 21, 2010
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New York Standard grade 97 model K 16s 7j circa 1921ser. #126210

My first "real" pocket watch (American antique/vintage) which I acquired last May as I'm still pretty new to the hobby. While I understand it being "low end" I was amazed by the quality and craftsmanship that went into the watch. Antique American pocket watches in general are really a bargain and also I'm not just buying a watch but I'm also buying history.

View attachment 690714 View attachment 690716
I agree .....these pocket watches are just that..... a piece of history that will never be repeated. I've been collecting for many years and although I do have so called higher end watches, some of my favorites are not worth very much but beautiful to me just the same. Some collectors look down on watches like New York Standard's and Trenton's because they weren't top of the line when they were made. The average working man in those days couldn't afford many of the so called upper end watches like Rail Road grade watches. I think the watches that formed the backbone of time keeping in those days were the less expensive watches.

The next time I hear someone say "It's just an Elgin", I'll have to show them my 18 size 7 Jewel Elgin that can hold 6 to 8 seconds a week face up or face down. I'd be willing to bet I could tune your New York Standard to do the same. I may have to very accurately poise the balance, and spit shine the pivots etc.,(and maybe not :) ) but I bet I could do it.

So don't sell ANY American watch of that era short. That's why I like and collect New York Standards as well as other so called "low end" watches. If you tune and carry them they will surprise you AND are just as much a part of American history as the high end RR Watches. Many serious collectors are interested in the history behind ALL American watches during the industrial revolution when Americans mass produced the best watches in the world !!!

By the way.....nice watch ! Those blue dials were a nice touch by N.Y.Standard. (Owned by Keystone Watch Co at the rime)
Sorry for the long wind :rolleyes:
 
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