New year new clock

[Davel831]

Happy new year to everyone
I am just about to strip and clean and repair a 1939 Perivale west minister three train clock. I have done a few two trains in the past and failed badly at another three train, so i am hoping i can crack this one.

After cleaning and oiling when it comes to the chiming and striking mechanism, is there a set sequence that i need to follow? Sorry for the daft questions and if this has been posted before .

A couple of pics included and i think i am missing the nut to keep the hands in place!

Any help advice or thoughts would be greatly appreciated

Kind regards Dave

 

[Simon Holt]

Dave

This shouldn't be too difficult for you. Most of the setting up (synchronisation) is done 'outside the movement' after the clock is re-assembled. On the chime side, there are two wheels (outside the plates) and one lever (between the plates) which all have grub screws.

When you have finished the clean/repair/re-assemble process, if you have any problem understanding the relationship between these three items then come back here and someone will talk you through it.

Simon

 

[Davel831]

Simon
Many many thanks for the welcome and tips. i just noticed that the hands are incorrect and of centre and also the centre nut is missing to keep the hands on . I have another Perivale so will see if i can strip to make a good one. If that makes sense.

Thank you again for all the encouraging advice, this may not be an antique but keeps me out of trouble lol

Kind regards Dave

 

[Davel831]

Dear All
Thank you for your advice and help i have managed to get the chimining side working , and in synchronisation with the 15 mins. However the strike side i am struggling with please see the link below for any advice

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I am assuming there is a set sequence to set the striking side

regards Dave

 

[Simon Holt]

Dave, that link doesn't work for me. Is it to a video? If so, you need to upload the video to (e.g.) YouTube and post a link here.

Simon

 

[Mike Phelan]

Happy new year to everyone
I am just about to strip and clean and repair a 1939 Perivale west minister three train clock. I have done a few two trains in the past and failed badly at another three train, so i am hoping i can crack this one.

After cleaning and oiling when it comes to the chiming and striking mechanism, is there a set sequence that i need to follow? Sorry for the daft questions and if this has been posted before .

A couple of pics included and i think i am missing the nut to keep the hands in place!

Any help advice or thoughts would be greatly appreciated

Kind regards Dave

View attachment 688749 View attachment 688750

Dave,
Assuming that the chime barrel sequence hasn't been altered, all that's needed without separating the plates, is to remove the count wheel, then:
If you operate each peal (4 notes for a Westminster) until you get a descending 4 notes it's the quarter past or end of the quarter to. It should then stop. At that point replace the count wheel in either place, and all should be OK.

For interest, the Perivale has a very unusual and clever way with its self-correct.

 

[Davel831]

Hi Mike
Many thanks for this , so many people are just wonderful on here. What i think is the long lever is not clearing the pin on the strike wheel to allow it to rotate and strike the hours.

I think

Regards Dave

 

[tracerjack]

For reverence, my post #30 has a video of a correctly working Perivale.
https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/perivale-bentima.184523/#post-1512446

 

[Mike Phelan]

Hi Mike
Many thanks for this , so many people are just wonderful on here. What i think is the long lever is not clearing the pin on the strike wheel to allow it to rotate and strike the hours.


Regards Dave

Hi Dave,
I'm assuming that your "pin" and "strike wheel" are the warning wheel and pin (the one just preceding the fly) therefore your long lever isn't falling far enough to clear it (**).
But looking at the pic the rack has fallen, so like i asked previously, with the count wheel off completely, something is preventing (**) - you need to find out why.

 

[tracerjack]

Your long lever is now lifting too high. Did you alter the detent that’s rides the locking plate? The rack is not supposed to fall on the initial lift at the hour. It falls when the detent on the locking plate rides over the hump on the fourth quarter section on the locking plate. I also noticed the chime warn run occurred nearly ten minutes before the hour, which also indicates the long lever is lifting too high even at a partial lift. With your long lever too high, it looks now like it will not release the warn pin on the strike side. There is also no warning run on the strike side. Please watch the video I linked in post #8 to see how it is supposed to work at the hour.
A video from the strike side might help us see how the tip of the long lever is interacting with the pinned wheel. I know it is time consuming to post videos, but they are the best way to diagnose problems.

 

[tracerjack]

…..But looking at the pic the rack has fallen, so like i asked previously, with the count wheel off completely, something is preventing (**) - you need to find out why.

Mike, could you please explain to me your term “count wheel” for a chiming clock. I have only heard this term with time and strike count wheel movements.

 

[tracerjack]

Posted in wrong place.

 

[Mike Phelan]

Mike, could you please explain to me your term “count wheel” for a chiming clock. I have only heard this term with time and strike count wheel movements.

It's the little chap with four notches (as opposed to eleven on a striking clock) that counts each peal on a chiming clock, Jack.

 

[tracerjack]

It's the little chap with four notches (as opposed to eleven on a striking clock) that counts each peal on a chiming clock, Jack.

It took me a bit to figure out your description because I was thinking of the strike side and couldn’t think of anything with four notches. Then I finally remembered I had recently heard the “locking plate” called the “chime count wheel”. Have I got it right now or am I still off base?

 

[Mike Phelan]

Hi Jack,
No right or wrong here.
Some call them locking plates, others count wheels. I use the latter, as it's either a wheel or is attached to one and does "count", whereas using the term "locking plate" isn't usually a plate and doesn't lock anything.

Terminology will always change over the years, regions and centuries. We say "arbor" and you say "arbour" but for us in UK that is a group of trees ... I'll get my hat

 

[shutterbug]

So, the sequence of events: As the last peal of the hour chime sounds, the count wheel/cam should lift the long lever that goes to the strike side. That long lever should in turn lift the rack hook, which allows the rack to fall and the train to go into warning mode. At the end of the chime, the warning pin should be released and the strike should start.
What are you seeing happen? It looks like your strike might be initialized by that pin in the count wheel cam. Usually it's done with a higher lobe on the cam.

 

[tracerjack]

Shutterbug, this Perivale movement does use a high spot on the fourth quarter of the chime cam. The lower detent on the long lever rides the cam like most movements. The high spot comes during the middle of the hour chime sequence. What is off on the movement we are examining is that the rack is falling at the partial lift for the chime side long before the high spot comes into play. Then, when the long lever drops and the strike should start, it doesn’t move. Here is the video of mine working properly. The fourth quarter comes at about :53 seconds

 

[Mike Phelan]

Shutterbug, this Perivale movement does use a high spot on the fourth quarter of the chime cam. What is off on the movement we are examining is that the rack is falling at the partial lift for the chime side long before the high spot comes into play.

That would mean that you would have a single strike at the end of every fourth quarter, though? Single as the rack hook wouldn't lift the rack far enough to allow the rack to fall, but far enough for the rack hook to be free of the notch on the gathering pallet for the striking to "warn".

 

[tracerjack]

That would mean that you would have a single strike at the end of every fourth quarter, though? Single as the rack hook wouldn't lift the rack far enough to allow the rack to fall, but far enough for the rack hook to be free of the notch on the gathering pallet for the striking to "warn".

I imagine it would, if the strike side would activate. Right now, I don’t see it doing anything. When working correctly, the long lever shouldn’t lift the rack hook at all during 1-3 quarters.

 

[Davel831]

Dear All,
I thought i would give you a update of where i am up too. I went back to basics stripped and cleaned , and placed new springs as they seemed very weak . Reassembled and now have a clock that is ticking and keeping really good time!

It is chiming and striking on the hour, and all appears to be working well since my last post and i have had this testing in my office.

The only issue i have , and this is due to me and my schoolboy error i think, is that it does strike exactly on the quarters. It goes through the normal process the centre cam lifts the lifting piece which then engages the warning pin. But i think my center cam is off centre? as it strikes five mins i think before each quarter.

So please excuse my daft question here , how do i realign the center cam so i appear to be striking actually on the quarters?

Thank you again for all the amazing ideas and support here .

Kind regards Dave

 

[Mike Phelan]

Dave - if the centre collet on the minute hand can be turned, turn it until it chimes correctly at the quarters - if not then you will need to hold the centre arbor still while turning the cannon pinion - not a job for the faint hearted!

A silly question first, though - is the minute hand the right way round, ie can you see the front of the hand?

 

[Davel831]

Dear Mike
Many thanks for the email, i must say i have really enjoyed putting this together and gaining a better understanding of how a three train works. I took each section and when i stripped it down, did a dry run putting it together and getting my head literally on how it works , then how each section of the train works in conjunction with each other.

The minute hand is definitely the right way round , as i can see the chrome looking at me. As for the centre arbour , i feel i need to look at a way to hold the centre cam , then advance the cannon pinion so it aligns to the quarter.

I agree not for the faint hearted !!!!

thanks for the help

Kind regards Dave

 

[Mike Phelan]

Much easier to move the centre bush in the hand, Dave; trying to move the cannon pinion is fraught with danger

 

[Davel831]

HI Mike many thanks i think i have done this by hand. The extra spinach certianly helped i feel in this case.

 

[Mike Phelan]

Good stuff, Dave. Give my regards to Olive Oyl!