New store finds

Jack1822B

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Everyone here was kind enough to provide such useful information with my prior post on two clocks from a local shop. This info and some additional research paid off in finding another shop- just a bit further away. We walked in and the first thing we found was a Herschede 248 Wellington that my wife and I both really like:
IMG_0970.jpg
It was in great shape and priced significantly-less than the prior clock we had looked at, with a similar movement overhaul and guarantee. They also had a Seth Thomas that caught my eye:
IMG_1624.jpg
There was also a wall clock by Ingraham which we both liked as well:
IMG_0959.jpg
Finally two that my wife really liked, a bit different in style, not sure about age or maker:
IMG_1623.jpg IMG_1619.jpg

If anyone has knowledge of any of these I'd be happy to hear about it. I'm actively searching away trying to see what I can learn.
 

wow

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The last one is an oriental reproduction. I would pass on it. The rest are all nice. Without any idea of the asking price, it is difficult to offer advice.
 
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Jack1822B

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The last one is an oriental reproduction. I would pass on it. The rest are all nice. Without any idea of the asking price, it is difficult to offer advice.
Sorry I forgot to include that. The Seth Thomas, Ingraham, and the art deco with the two birds were all around $500. The oriental reproduction one was around $1000 which I thought was too high.
 

Jack1822B

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Value and beauty are always in the eye of the observer or in this case, customer.
You have a selection to choose from and each of us will have our own preference.
You have already indicated that your good wife has slightly different ideas to yourself. ;)
Oh definitely. I'm mostly trying to find out a bit more about the history or maker- specifically the art deco one with the two birds and the Ingraham wall clock.
 

Steven Thornberry

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The Ingraham appears to be actually an Anglo-American clock, i.e., an English case with an imported American movement. Perhaps it is from the 1880's, but I can't be sure. A look at the movement might add a bit more specificity.

The Seth Thomas is possibly the best of the lot, though I won't hazard an opinion on the asking price. It is the Chime Clock No. 2, with a Sonora chime. It is shown in Tran Duy Ly's book on Seth Thomas clocks (3rd ed.) from the 1914 catalogue, where the description mentions it has a 4-bell Westminster chime. The finish on the case is the adamantine finish that Seth Thomas acquired the right to use and used extensively.
 

chimeclockfan

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You always find the stores with great selection. :chuckling: The Herschede or Seth Thomas Sonora would be my top picks but the final decision is all on you now.

Happy hunting!
 

Ticktocktime100

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Hi,

Yes, the Herschede is a very fine clock and certainly a better investment than the previous one. The four glass clock isn’t an oriental reproduction - it is an excellent late 19th century French example with mercury pendulum and cloisoinné enamel panels. At it’s price, it is a good investment. Perhaps you can bring it down a bit more - but I have seen them priced far higher. The other clocks aren’t as good value, in my opinion.

Regards.
 

brian fisher

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Justin, where do you see a sonora?

I am thinking the 248 was the Edinborough (or perhaps Edinburg?) model for herschede? anyway, that one is a really nice clock. without knowing the price, it is tough to say if the deal is right. with this many clocks, one would assume the seller is knowledgeable about what they have.

as to the french clock in the last pick, i would like to see the back of the movement to make an informed decision as to it being original or not. there are indeed a good number of clocks out there very similar to this one that are indeed cheap chinese repos.
 

wow

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Hi,

Yes, the Herschede is a very fine clock and certainly a better investment than the previous one. The four glass clock isn’t an oriental reproduction - it is an excellent late 19th century French example with mercury pendulum and cloisoinné enamel panels. At it’s price, it is a good investment. Perhaps you can bring it down a bit more - but I have seen them priced far higher. The other clocks aren’t as good value, in my opinion.

Regards.
Thanks for clarifying my mistake. I was “taken” by one several years ago when I bought one similar to that on ebay. It was the repro.
 

Jack1822B

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The Seth Thomas is a Sonora 4 bell, we looked at the inside of it and the face says Sonora chime on it- it sounded beautiful. Here is the name plate form inside the Herschede:
IMG_0961.jpg
They were asking $3800 for the Herschede including a movement overhaul and case cleaning + delivery/setup. When we expressed interest in a few other clocks we were able to get a potential package that was priced even better. I tried to get a picture of the serial number through the glass- it's blurry but I think it may be 625646 which would put it 1969 - early 70's?
IMG_0964.jpg



The shop owner said the multi-color one with the mercury pendulum was original French, of course that may or may not be true. She said she had bought it about 5 years ago at a higher price in the Netherlands, but with the market on clocks coming down she was currently asking under her purchase price on the clock. Certainly very pretty if original.

My wife would like to try and add on the Art deco clock with the birds on top- were those just made by generic makers or were any of them of particularly good quality? I should add- the shop had over 300 clocks, I believe, the biggest in our state. It was an excellent trip.

Thanks everyone
 
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chimeclockfan

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Justin, where do you see a sonora?
From the original post (hoping the quotes turned out OK)
Easily told by the 'Sonora' legion and offset winding arbor at 3 o'clock. Haven't handled one in person but they sound great in all the recordings. Definitely an acoustic step up from the old fashioned 'typewriter bells' older bracket clocks sometimes come with. Interestingly the really old Seth Thomas hall clocks had 'typewriter bells' and occasionally coiled gongs but they benefit from the larger long cases which are acoustic gold for any bell or gong. I saw one at a historical society years ago.

The Herschede number corresponds to late 1968 but the old serial number databases posted on several sites are not complete and might have to be checked for accuracy.
 

brc

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Regarding the french clock in the last picture, it looks original but the pendulum looks like it has a plain mercury pendulum. I cannot say if they exclusively had matching cloisonne/champleve pendulums but most did.
 

Jack1822B

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Regarding the french clock in the last picture, it looks original but the pendulum looks like it has a plain mercury pendulum. I cannot say if they exclusively had matching cloisonne/champleve pendulums but most did.
I just asked my wife about the pendulum as she was the one looking at this clock more yesterday. She says the owner took it out and that the side that is laying face down in my photo did, indeed, have matching enamel-work on its face.

I've found this very similar looking clock online - some of the colors are slightly different and obviously the dial as arabic vs roman numerals, does that raise concern for an imitation or would there have been slight variations in the design during manufacture?

 

new2clocks

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i would like to see the back of the movement to make an informed decision as to it being original or not.
I agree, especially at the asking price. Taking a clear picture of the back of the movement should be very easy for that clock, along with the Art Deco model. And the shop owner should be more than happy to accommodate you.

Regards.
 

Salsagev

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If these are a clock shop, I would not expect a low price. I personally like the art deco one; I find that tiny chrome dial very nice and the Art deco design in general. I don't believe they have good resale value tho. The Sonora's dial is a bit worn and does not appeal to me personally.
 

Jack1822B

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I agree, especially at the asking price. Taking a clear picture of the back of the movement should be very easy for that clock, along with the Art Deco model. And the shop owner should be more than happy to accommodate you.

Regards.
I'm going to call the owner back on Tuesday when they open back up and ask for pictures of the front of that mercury pendulum and the movements of both the art deco and the Cloisonne clock.
 
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Jim DuBois

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Based on current conditions in the market it is my opinion that several of the prices suggested are more than a bit optimistic. $100 dollar clocks offered at $500 and discounted by a large percentage is still likely too much.....
 

Jack1822B

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Based on current conditions in the market it is my opinion that several of the prices suggested are more than a bit optimistic. $100 dollar clocks offered at $500 and discounted by a large percentage is still likely too much.....
I'm probably naïve, but is it reasonable to think that I'm going to find these clocks fully restored in a retail shop and priced at $100? I understand if I wanted to buy something 'as is' I could save a lot of money.
 

Salsagev

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You will not find anything fully restored for $100. Anything restored will not be a great deal and will not have resale value. Clock repair is expensive and the “$500” dollar clock will be worth $400 if you pay another $250 to service in 10 years.
 

Schatznut

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You will not find anything fully restored for $100. Anything restored will not be a great deal and will not have resale value. Clock repair is expensive and the “$500” dollar clock will be worth $400 if you pay another $250 to service in 10 years.
I think you're being optimistic!

I'm going to step out on a limb here and suggest one of my favorite books - "Busted Tractors and Rusty Knuckles" by Roger Welsch. Tractor repair and clock repair may not seem to have a lot in common at first glance, but, oh brother, do they! The humor and philosophical wisdom in this book carries over directly into the clock hobby - passion - obsession - whatever we choose to call it.
 

Jack1822B

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You will not find anything fully restored for $100. Anything restored will not be a great deal and will not have resale value. Clock repair is expensive and the “$500” dollar clock will be worth $400 if you pay another $250 to service in 10 years.
That all makes sense. I guess, from my perspective, I'm looking for original clocks with some degree of history to them (all of which can be subjective) which I can buy at a 'reasonable' price at retail and put them in my home to enjoy. I want to know they are in good running condition and require no immediate work from me. I realize I am paying a premium for this - to support the overhead of the shops and the skill/time of the clock expert who is finding these, cleaning/repairing them, and running the store. I have no intention of ever trying to resell for a profit- just wanting to enjoy working examples of interesting horology.

My main goal in posting these here is to ensure I am not buying cheap reproductions being passed off as something they are not, or that I am not getting hugely ripped off even at retail prices. Plus all the differing views of members here has really helped spur my own research into these topics so I can hopefully continue to build my own knowledge base.
 

Salsagev

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I see. You are supporting the clock economy. Perhaps visit different stores and compare similar clocks. That way you will know what price better matches it’s condition. I suggest supporting smaller shops rather than a famous shop that opened 100 years ago (just to help smaller businesses). A clock shop should always be open in answering questions/concerns the clock or you can and should move right on to the next shop.
 
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Jim DuBois

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One comment concerning a cloisonne clock I bought sight unseen a few years ago. It looked a lot like this one. Quite nice. It was described to me by a fellow collector as "period." I bought it. When it arrived, it turned out to be a fine recreation done in China maybe 40-50-60-70 years ago. The movement was a semi-decent knock off of a proper and period French movement. When I complained to the seller he said it was "old" /"period" and his definition of period and old were the same. And it was a bit old, but certainly not in my thinking "period." eBay told me tough luck.....it was old per the seller. So, I dumped it and lost about 75 cents on the dollar when I sold it for what it was. Not saying anything about the clock in this thread, just relating a story.

Regarding pricing and the like may I suggest going to auction results for clocks at Skinners, Cottones, or Todd Porters recent auction? Also places like Antique Clocks Price Guide - Grandfather Wall and Mantel will for a few $$ offer a very good education on clock prices/values.
 
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Kevin W.

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I dont and wont pay big bucks for common clocks. Like said here, check auctions, recent sales and see what they go for. Many think because something is old, its worth big money.
 

Jack1822B

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I contacted the shop and they got back to me with some additional photos of the movements of the French regulator and the art deco clock. I'll post them below. I am most interested if anyone has additional thoughts on the authenticity of the French regulator clock with the multicolor enamel work and its movement. Thank you all.

'1880's French Crystal Champlevé Regulator'
WIN_20210218_11_19_17_Proa.jpg WIN_20210218_11_20_12_Pro.jpg WIN_20210218_11_20_34_Pro.jpg

'French art deco crystal regulator'
IMG_1623.jpg WIN_20210218_11_21_27_Proa.jpg WIN_20210218_11_22_19_Pro.jpg

Thanks again!
 

Salsagev

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Does the tag say “Oil painting w/ clock”? Both looks French to me. They are not Asian because they are held in with taper pins and the overall build is solid.
 

Jack1822B

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Does the tag say “Oil painting w/ clock”? Both looks French to me. They are not Asian because they are held in with taper pins and the overall build is solid.
That one visible tag does indeed say that, I believe it is for a different item behind this particular clock. Here is the tag for the clock in question- the
champlevé one.
IMG_1620.jpg
After asking for the additional pictures they have offered it to me for $1800. Not committed to buying it. Still researching prices around on various auction sites. Definitely don't want to pay that much if anyone thought it was a reproduction or significantly altered from its original state.
 

Salsagev

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$1800 is a definite no-go. You could get much nicer stuff for that much.
 

new2clocks

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I contacted the shop and they got back to me with some additional photos of the movements of the French regulator and the art deco clock. I'll post them below. I am most interested if anyone has additional thoughts on the authenticity of the French regulator clock with the multicolor enamel work and its movement. Thank you all.

'1880's French Crystal Champlevé Regulator'
View attachment 638963 View attachment 638965 View attachment 638967

'French art deco crystal regulator'
View attachment 638977 View attachment 638981 View attachment 638983

Thanks again!
The crystal regulator has no trademark (not unusual) and no finisher's mark that I can see.

The "4 11" seems to be the French measurement of the pendulum, but I leave that to the experts.


After asking for the additional pictures they have offered it to me for $1800.
I thought they originally asked $1,000 for the regulator. Please explain.

The oriental reproduction one was around $1000 which I thought was too high.
Regards.
 

Jack1822B

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The crystal regulator has no trademark (not unusual) and no finisher's mark that I can see.

The "4 11" seems to be the French measurement of the pendulum, but I leave that to the experts.




I thought they originally asked $1,000 for the regulator. Please explain.



Regards.
My apologies. That was a mistype- the original price for the multi-color regulator was offered around $1900, that was an error on my part. So I suppose our interest generated a bit of a price drop. Either way, it seems that is too high for this particular clock. Again, sorry for the confusion.
 

Salsagev

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How much is the other Art Deco clock offered at?
 

Jack1822B

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How much is the other Art Deco clock offered at?
-This is the clock with the two silver birds on top-
When bundled with some other clocks the price we were negotiating at was around the 5-600 range, I believe it was originally stickered at around $1000 on its individual sales tag, but had then been marked on sale, and then lowered further when we were discussing multi-clock bundles.
 

Salsagev

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Sorry, none of those prices are attractive (at least to me). If you are willing to pay the price for those clocks, I would suggest looking at more higher end stuff. Just my opinion.
 

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