New schatz 400 Day Clock

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by pahel, Mar 12, 2019.

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  1. pahel

    pahel Registered User

    Jul 26, 2008
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    hi all,

    acquiered this JUF 400 day clock a few days ago, usually, I don't go in for post-WWII clocks, but there was a price less than 20 USD -though without dome and key-, so I couldn't resist. It came with a suspension wire which appears a bit to short, as it runs well and is tolerably keeping time, I decided not to change anything.
    Some of the origial varnishing on the backplate is gone away and it looks a bit blotchy now. Do you think it is worth all that efforts to remove the rest of it an polish the brass ?
    And -since I'm not familiar with newer 400 day clocks- does that 49 number on the backplate specify the date of manufacture ?
    thanks in advance
    pahel DSC00872.jpg DSC00874.jpg
     
  2. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Nov 24, 2014
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    I tend to leave a clock as-is if it runs and generally looks OK within the movement. But if a clock needs to come apart that's when I would attack the finish and bring it back.

    As for the 49, that's really Model 49 and probably conceptually designed in the 1949 timeframe. Later there were Model 53 and 54s. But Schatz began putting actual month-year of manufacturer on the back plates below the "No Jewels" stamping beginning in 1952...I don't recall seeing any 1951 dates. So your clock was likely made earlier in the 1950s.

    Kurt
     
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  3. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Hi pahel,

    JUF/Schatz 49s were some of the best quality post-war clocks made. Aside from the motion works and other minor changes they're very close to Harder/JUF's original design. When serviced you should expect to get at least 360 degrees of rotation per beat. I have some that have never been serviced that still run that well.

    When I see one at that price I always grab them!

    Eric
     
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  4. pahel

    pahel Registered User

    Jul 26, 2008
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    thanks for responding and your help with dating the clock. I agree with Eric, that the movement is well-made, however losses in quality due to the budgetary rigours and cost cutting measures of mass production are highly visible -such as the plastic base or thin plates so I don't think this Clock will remain in my collection for a long time. I'm surprised to learn, that this clock could come up to a full 360degree rotation, currently I don't see more than 180degrees pb. may be that's due to the shorter suspension wire, but I dont believe, that a few mm more would make such a big difference. A full rotation would look much better, thus I'll attempt a thinner suspenion first. Though I'm not shure, if the escapement wheel has been dislocated by the pre-owner since there are some toolmarks visible on that excentric pivot srew (i don't know the english expression). May be a correction will provide the missing power to win the full rotation..
    thanks again+regards
    pahel
     
  5. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    #5 KurtinSA, Mar 12, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
    pahel -

    The suspension spring thickness doesn't contribute to the amount of rotation. It controls the time regulation. The goal on these type of full size clocks is to have 8 beats in 60 seconds when using the properly weighted pendulum. A too thick spring will complete 8 beats in less than 60 seconds...a too thin spring will do the same in more than 60 seconds. If the difference from 60 is too great you will not be able to regulate the time properly.

    The amount of rotation I believe is largely due to how precisely the escapement is set up. Perfect fork placement, perfect locks and drops, impulse to the suspension spring at the perfect spot will contribute to healthy rotation. Note, it's not all about rotation...it's about over swing. A clock will not continue to run if the over swing is too small.

    Kurt
     
  6. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    The "plastic" base is made from Bakelite, invented in 1907. It is far superior to many of the earlier materials used in clock bases. It's still used in manufacturing products today.

    Eric
     
  7. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Hi pahel,

    It's interesting you noted "thin plates" as a cost cutting measure, but the thinner plates actually appeared after WWI. For JUF/Schatz the reduction was from just under 2.5mm to 2mm. They maintained that plate thickness even after WWII. For comparison, Becker reduced their plates to about 1.85mm thick after WWI. The manufacturers that started up after WWI used still thinner plates.

    In other ways the Schatz 49 is higher quality than the pre-war clocks. One example, the width of the spring barrel teeth was increased from 4mm to 5.5mm, making them more resistant to damage if the spring should break. I have a pile of toothless spring barrels from early clocks and none for Schatz 49s.

    Finally, JUF "mass produced" clocks using the American system staring in 1885.

    Eric
     
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  8. pahel

    pahel Registered User

    Jul 26, 2008
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    Eric, I agree with you, this clock isn't such bad and the more I look at it, the more I'm convinced of your opinion. Anyhow, for reasons I cannot declare, I think, that plastic, even bacelite, has nothing to do with ancient clocks. In recent times we are afflicted with poor 400 day clocks, with many parts made of plastic in a fake brass look - an that concerns just the mechanical ones, in 400 day quartz clocks, the only remaining metal part is the suspension spring. I would not compare that to the one above, however thats the beginning of an unattractive development giving me the reason to favor the ones made prior to wwI.
    Beyond that "plate thinning" process, which, in this case I agree, is neglectable, there are other points, e.g. the machined upper block holding in earlier clocks vs. a simple bent plate, massive brass pendulum elements, pillars or ratchet bridges, that reveal the point of cost cutting I mentioned. There is no reason to "badmouth" post wwII 400 day clocks, particulay this "49er" production, but compared to e.g. a JUF around 1905, there is a significant saving of material.
    But again, the movement itself is well made and there is nothing to complain about.

    Concerning that overswing issue, in fact this is just very slight in my clock, estimated 5 degrees in each direction. according to my experience, thicker springs decrease the overswing-effect, which makes a crucial part of the rotation, thus I suppose, that the present spring is not appropriate. Next I'll put in a 0.102 suspension as recommended, and see what happens.
    regards
    pahel
     
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  9. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Hi pahel,

    I love a good discussion! For the most part I agree with you about the quality of post WWII clocks. The post war boom created a vast number of cheap 400 day clocks. But there are some exceptions. In my opinion Schatz is one of those.

    I guess it comes down to what are you looking for to collect. I too like to find the older ones, but I also like examples of the improvements that allow us to have this conversation. For example, the machined (or rather cast) suspension bracket during its time was considered a flaw. It didn't allow for fore and aft movement of the pendulum so the clock had to sit absolutely level or you could break the spring. Suspension problems gave 400 day clocks a poor reputation and prevented the clocks from achieving wider acceptance. This wasn't solved until the early 1900s when various gimbal style suspensions were introduced. The bent metal suspension brackets, introduced just after WWI, provided all the benefits of the gimbal designs and they are much easier to set up and adjust. Yes they were lower cost and I agree lower quality, but they were still an improvement that kept 400 day clocks in the market.

    Spring thickness doesn't effect over swing. Spring thickness effects time keeping. Good over swing comes from proper setup of the forks relation to the anchor pin. To get more over swing you must lower the fork relative to the anchor pin. Good rotation comes from power reaching the escapement and is limited by the design of the movement train and lost motion at the fork. You want the fork tines to fit as close to the anchor pin as possible without binding to eliminate lost motion.

    Eric
     
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  10. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    .012 i think is what you meant. Good luck Pahel.
     
  11. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I wondered about the dimensions...he wrote 0.102 and meant millimeters which is 0.004 inches which is the typical size for full-size Schatz clocks.

    Kurt
     
  12. pahel

    pahel Registered User

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    Eric, thanks for your reply and yes, I also appreciate a good discussion, that's why I share this specific forum with all of your comprehensive knowledge on 400 day clocks (other ones too, of course), sparing no pains to requicken all my english skills...
    I really didn't think about the advantage of the half-cardanic block mount, that's certainly an improvement, however this is not necessarily involved with a bent metal bracket.. I also argee, that during the years, there were some real improvements, such as the leveling feets (which in fact are not provided with this Schatz clock) or the inspection holes that seem to have been adapted from Kienzle ??
    Anyhow, I didn't want to start a general discussion about clock quality as this is somewhat a subjetive value, and as you said, it comes down to what the collector is looking for. Personally, I like the small dials that show more of the brass of the front plate, also the very nice and fine turned finials of the early clock production in combination with good quality and their rarefaction. I'm still impressed by the accuracy of clock making more than a century ago, allowing these products to be still in use.

    thanks for the indication to lower the fork, may be that will solve the problem of the incomplete rotation and again emphasises the reason to share this great forum.
    And Kurt is right, 0.102 meant millimeters, as recommended for plate 1278 in the 400 day guide.
    regards
    pahel
     
  13. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    From what I've read, Kienzle introduced the pallet inspection holes around 1906. It seems that it might not have caught on until Gustav Becker began using them on their clocks around 1915/1916. Since Becker was one of the more prolific manufacturers, others began to catch on. The Torsion Times indicates Kundo used them from theit start in 1923 but JUF didn't introduce them until after WWII.

    Kurt
     

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