• The online Bulletins and Mart and Highlights are currently unavailable due to a failure of a network piece of equipment. We are working to replace it and have the Online publications available as soon as possible. Thank you for your patience.

New Movement out of beat ?

TEACLOCKS

NAWCC Member
Mar 22, 2005
2,799
151
63
71
Santa Rosa Calif.
www.weserviceallclocks.com
Country
Region
I have a new movement [ Hermle 451 ] auto beat, will not get in to beat by pushing pendulum as far to right or left.
if it were a solid "not on a friction" I would lift the movement on the LEFT side " High side " to get it in to beat.
You can't bend the crutch so which direction do I move the Pallet cock ?
Right or left :???::???::???:
 

Mike Phelan

Registered User
Dec 17, 2003
10,340
130
63
West Yorkshire, England
Country
Region
Depends in which direction the 'scape wheel runs. If the crutch and pendulum are stationary and the clock is level, try moving the pallets on their arbor just a wee bit to see if the beat is better or worse.
 

MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

NAWCC Life Member
NAWCC Member
Jul 4, 2009
2,516
170
63
Muscatine, Iowa 52761
Country
Region
I have a new movement [ Hermle 451 ] auto beat, will not get in to beat by pushing pendulum as far to right or left.
if it were a solid "not on a friction" I would lift the movement on the LEFT side " High side " to get it in to beat.
You can't bend the crutch so which direction do I move the Pallet cock ?
Right or left :???::???::???:
Automatic beat movements will never be in exact beat. That was not the goal. As long as it does not stop, don’t worry about it,
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,597
2,226
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
You can hold the anchor with your fingers while you move the pendulum crutch like you normally would. Or you could press down on the pallet that is on the same side as the direction you want the crutch to go. TINY movements ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: NEW65

Schatznut

NAWCC Member
Sep 26, 2020
581
233
43
SoCal
Country
Region
Automatic beat movements will never be in exact beat. That was not the goal. As long as it does not stop, don’t worry about it,
OK, that's something I know nothing about - automatic beat movements - so I went to the archives and found only one thread mentioning the subject - this one. Is there reference material somewhere I could read, or would you be kind enough to explain the concept? Thanks - learning new things is what keeps me alive.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JeffG

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,597
2,226
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
The teeth are short, which allows the verge to bottom out on the wheel. That moves the verge as the pendulum continues to swing. The pendulum eventually settles into a normal swing, and the verge has been moving on every beat until it reaches that point. It has progressively moved less and less on every beat, and when it no longer bottoms out, the beat it is usually close enough for the clock to run.
 

Schatznut

NAWCC Member
Sep 26, 2020
581
233
43
SoCal
Country
Region
The teeth are short, which allows the verge to bottom out on the wheel. That moves the verge as the pendulum continues to swing. The pendulum eventually settles into a normal swing, and the verge has been moving on every beat until it reaches that point. It has progressively moved less and less on every beat, and when it no longer bottoms out, the beat it is usually close enough for the clock to run.
Thank you for the explanation! I can see how this works in my mind's eye.
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
15,039
1,877
113
They work automatically ... unless the case is to narrow, then they don't work at all. The case needs to be about 7 or 8 inches wider than the pendulum bob.

If you have a narrow case the movement will have to be changed to a 'dead beat'.

Yeah, I know, the auto beat is a deadbeat too but that's the faulty nomenclature used by the factory for years and my guess is they will never change it.

Willie X
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,597
2,226
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
I'd give the autobeat a C for effort, but yeah. You'll only get close on them. When I'm setting them up in a customer's home, I usually set them manually, give the pendulum a shorter swing and hope they never touch it :D
 
  • Like
Reactions: NEW65 and Willie X

NEW65

Registered User
Nov 17, 2010
1,585
75
48
United Kingdom
Country
Region
I had the same issue as you TEA. However I do what Shutt suggests and hold the anchor with one hand and simply move the the crutch with the other. I’m not keen on auto beat - giving the pendulum a wide swing hardly ever puts the clock in beat!! I always finish up adjusting manually and I always dread it when the customer has to make adjustments to the pendulum for timekeeping as it doesn’t take much to knock the clock out of beat!
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
15,039
1,877
113
Yep, unless the auto-beat is working as it should and has plenty of room to do so, that clock will be an ongoing problem. So, if it belongs to a customer, your only way out of this box is to exchange it now for a 'deadbeat' as already mentioned.

Willie X
 
  • Like
Reactions: NEW65

Carl Bergquist

Registered User
Oct 27, 2010
287
39
28
78
Southeast Wisconsin
Country
Region
I have one auto-beat with a pendulum about 18 inches long and weight driven. If I wind the weight up while the clock is working the clock will stop. I must gently stop the pendulum, wind the weight, then gently start the pendulum. I will continue to have only one auto-beat.
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
15,039
1,877
113
I received a 451, several years back, that had the wrong verge. It would run but barely. Found out that some E-wheels turn CW and some CCW. Mine was a mismatch, wrong verge for the rotation!
Willie X
 

NEW65

Registered User
Nov 17, 2010
1,585
75
48
United Kingdom
Country
Region
Didn’t know that Willie. Nearly every 0451 I’ve worked on no matter how old, the escape wheel turns clockwise as viewed from the front. Hermle did so many different movements but to fit the wrong verge is still unacceptable. I’ve had so many problems with their 0451’s but fortunately I’ve rectified things myself rather than having to pay to return them back! (Note ‘pay’ even though it’s not been my fault!)
Cheers Willie
 

Thomas Sanguigni

NAWCC Member
Aug 22, 2018
453
117
43
secondhandclockshop.com
Country
Region
I've noticed on some Hermle anchors the autobeat is too tight. I lessen the pressure on the autobeat mechanism with a crows foot and hollow staking punch. If you have ordered a new anchor, they seem very loose and smooth. I have tried to duplicate this feel for repair purposes.

Some advocate using locktite or super glue to stiffen these autobeat anchors up. Not me. I have even taken them apart to clean them, and reassembled them. On my TimeTrax I get some impressive low numbers in the single digits or teens. Set them on your grandfather stand, and deliver them with care to the customer.
 

MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

NAWCC Life Member
NAWCC Member
Jul 4, 2009
2,516
170
63
Muscatine, Iowa 52761
Country
Region
Didn’t know that Willie. Nearly every 0451 I’ve worked on no matter how old, the escape wheel turns clockwise as viewed from the front. Hermle did so many different movements but to fit the wrong verge is still unacceptable. I’ve had so many problems with their 0451’s but fortunately I’ve rectified things myself rather than having to pay to return them back! (Note ‘pay’ even though it’s not been my fault!)
Cheers Willie
A couple of points, if I may.

If a Hermle movement has a seconds feature the escape wheel will rotate opposite to the direction of one without. As a result, the pallets will be reversed. It is rare, but entirely possible that the incorrect pallets were installed. Unfortunately the way that Hermle tests would likely not catch that issue. So you may well have received a movement whether it had a seconds feature or not, with the incorrect verge.

Second, regarding returns. I realize you are in the UK. I do not know where you purchased the movement. I can tell you that if it had been purchased through us from Hermle North America, the return shipping would have been covered by them. In all fairness, I think it is important to state where the movement was actually purchased. I know that Hermle North America has paid for return shipping from as far away as Australia. Now the obvious thing in this case would be to get the correct verge assembly and HNA would have provided that for free if that was acceptable. Otherwise that would has paid for the return shipping.

I hope this helps.
 

MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

NAWCC Life Member
NAWCC Member
Jul 4, 2009
2,516
170
63
Muscatine, Iowa 52761
Country
Region
I have one auto-beat with a pendulum about 18 inches long and weight driven. If I wind the weight up while the clock is working the clock will stop. I must gently stop the pendulum, wind the weight, then gently start the pendulum. I will continue to have only one auto-beat.
It is important to wind the clock as quickly as reasonable. I might add that with auto beat clocks the verge can be replace with a manual beat set verge [but not the other way around].
 

Peter John

NAWCC Member
Sep 4, 2018
341
180
43
Scottsdale, Arizona
Country
Region
And I just did that on a clock I just replaced the movement. The case was not wide enough for the autobeat to set. Mark told me I could just replace the auto beat verge with the deadbeat verge and viola’, everything works fine. Swing is nice, keeps good time. Thx Mark. Peter
 

TEACLOCKS

NAWCC Member
Mar 22, 2005
2,799
151
63
71
Santa Rosa Calif.
www.weserviceallclocks.com
Country
Region
The new movement that I received had a seconds hand and Brenda said they didn't have a dead beat verge to send me.
So I am waiting for a call tag to return the movement for them to get it running, cause there was nothing that I could to get it in beat using the auto beat the way it was made to do. I was almost going to put some super glue on the tension spring of the crutch after I installed the movement.
"Couldn't do that".
Wishing my self good luck & them repairing the movement.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
168,984
Messages
1,474,548
Members
48,688
Latest member
jade1jerry
Encyclopedia Pages
1,060
Total wiki contributions
2,963
Last update
-