New member-new clock

Discussion in 'Your Newest Clock Acquisition' started by MCmalta, Mar 4, 2017.

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  1. MCmalta

    MCmalta Registered User

    Mar 4, 2017
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    Hi, I am a new member, so I hope I am doing this right!
    I have just purchased a new grandfather clock from my friend and I would like to find a bit more details about the clock, can anybody help please.
    I will attach a few pics for identification purposes.
    Regards MC.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    #2 Tinker Dwight, Mar 4, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2017
    Welcome to the message board.
    It looks to be a German clock.
    It could be a case made in Germany or in the USA.
    Is there anything written on the back of the case?
    Having three chains, it is a chiming clock.
    Is there anything written on the weights?
    Without seeing the movement and what might be written
    on the back, not much more.

    I just noticed the lion.
    The movement was made by Uhreafbrik Muhlheim, Muller & Co.
    It is no older than 1926 and looks to be late 20's to early 30's.
    There are those that can use the serial number to date it.
    That is if it has a serial number. It seems they stopped using
    them in 1932.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  3. owen.or

    owen.or Registered User
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  4. MCmalta

    MCmalta Registered User

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    Hi, thanks for your prompt info.
    I live in Malta and the clock was bought locally by my friend's grandfather, it was given to his daughter, my friend's aunt as a gift.
    In Malta we call these clocks, the 'LION CLOCK', hence the mark. On the dial is also marked 'MADE IN GERMANY'.
    It chimes every quarter hour and includes the hour chimes also, so if it's 10:15, one set of three chimes and ten dongs. I hope I have explained this clearly.
    I will try and look for some more info on the clock and case, maybe that will help.
    The movement is by Muller but I am a bit confused as it seems like the company has had three different logos.
    Thanks again for all your help.
    Regards MC.
     
  5. JTD

    JTD Registered User
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    Yes, the company (Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim, Müller & Co.) did have several logos. Many firms had more than one logo during their life, not unusual. Don't be confused, their is nothing strange about this.

    JTD
     
  6. harold bain

    harold bain Forums Administrator
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    I've never run into one of these that strikes the hour every 15 minutes. Does the weight on the left drop much faster than the other two? This would indicate that it should not strike every 15 minutes for the hour.
     
  7. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    As Harold mentions, the weights should go down at the same rate
    ( or close to ). If you have to wind the strike more often than
    the other two, it would indicate that the clock needs some adjustment.
    Typically the strike is only at the hour.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  8. MCmalta

    MCmalta Registered User

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    The bit that confused me about the different logos is that I would have expected that it was changes after a certain amount of years and so I could roughly tell the age of the clock. Is it that the company was making clocks with different logo at the same time of year?
     
  9. MCmalta

    MCmalta Registered User

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    Harold, it chimes the quarters and the hours at the same time. I will have to check the weights and see if the go down differently, in time as I only had the clock for two days.
    I will also try and attach a clip of the chimes.
     
  10. JTD

    JTD Registered User
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    The company had various lion logos registered from about 1920 onwards, some had the tails pointing down, some curling up, some had paws in different positions etc. and so on. Registering another logo did not necessarily mean that they stopped using the previous one.

    According to mikrolisk, your lion mark was registered about 1926. Schmid's 'Lexikon der Deutschen Uhrenindustrie' shows another lion, with his tail curling up, used about 1930. This does not mean that the one on your clock was not used as soon as the other one was registered. If the company had a lot of parts with one lion logo on them they would go using them - it was still their trade mark, which was the important thing.

    So mid 1920s to mid 1930s is pretty much the best we can say for the date.

    JTD
     
  11. MCmalta

    MCmalta Registered User

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    Interesting and well explained. Thanks for clearing that one out.
    I will speak to my friend and try and confirm the chimes, see if it was like that all the time. Another thing which I find unusual is that when it chimes on say, 12:30pm, it chimes two sets for the quarters and twelve dongs for the hours. I was expecting to hear just the chimes and no dongs. Unless it does that at 12:30am, which I was not awake to notice.
    I thank you all, again for your help and info, I really appreciate it.
     
  12. harold bain

    harold bain Forums Administrator
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    If it is not supposed to strike at every quarter, the strike weight will drop 4 times faster than the other two.
     
  13. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Do note that the strike weight drops a little faster when doing 12 strikes than
    when doing 1 strike. It should still average the same over 24 hours.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  14. Rockin Ronnie

    Rockin Ronnie Registered User
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  15. MCmalta

    MCmalta Registered User

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    The clock weights go down equally, slight variation as it tocks longer hours. I tried to upload anMP3 file of the chimes but I could not manage, maybe MP3 files not supported?
    I was reading about setting the clock up correctly and it seems that there is an app for that, 'ClockMaster', what would you suggest as I am still a novice?
     
  16. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    You can put up a link to a youtube but the site doesn't support
    videos, directly.
    Still pictures are best sent to the site for archiving.
    It sounds like you have an unusual clock.
    We'd love to hear it and see some pictures of the movement.
    I suspect your clock has a 1 second beat pendulum ( 2 seconds
    back and forth ).
    They are just about as easy to set the rate by watching them a few days.
    These are about 20 seconds per day for each turn of the rating nut.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  17. MCmalta

    MCmalta Registered User

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    Hi Tinker, sorry for the late reply but never noticed page two. I will take a clip, upload it to YouTube and post a link.
    I cleaned the face and thought I rubbed all the markings out, but they are still there, I'm guessing that these will be engraved or something and cannot be removed by just polishing. I had a fright for a minute there!
    Thanks again for all your help.
     
  18. Burkhard Rasch

    Burkhard Rasch Registered User
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    the minute rim and the numbers are engraved/stamped into the surface of the dial,then filled with black wax or laquer and covered with clear laquer,so they withstand Your effords a bit more than if they were just silk-screened but: be carefull,it´s a nice dial and the restauration would be costly.A nice and good quality clock You have,congrats!
    Burkhard
     
  19. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    MC, is there a serial number and Muller logo stamped on the back plate of the movement? I have compiled a database for the UMMC serial numbered clocks that confirms the logo on your clock was not used prior to early 1926, which corresponds to a serial number above 185000. All of the clocks with serial numbers at least through 1930-31 have a serial number plus a one or two-digit batch control number set just to the right of the main serial number. Most of the clocks also have a pendulum length stamp to the right and upward from the serial number.

    A photo of the back of the movement would be much appreciated.

    My data show that while Muller did use a number of lion logos, I do not find they were helter-skelter but used in a reasonably orderly fashion. I can provide more info later after we see what's on the back of your movement.
     
  20. MCmalta

    MCmalta Registered User

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    Hi guys, I thank you all for your interest and help.
    I have uploaded a clip on YouTube and I've attached the link;

    [video]https://youtu.be/XDRDksv0n0A[/video]

    I tried to look at the inside of the clock but I do not know how to get a good look at the back plate, all it has are two small windows, cut in the wooden case, one on each side. Sorry but I know nothing about grandfather clocks, I always wished to have one, as they affectionate me, had this opportunity to buy one and just bought it!
    Any hints how to get a good view of the back plate?

    Many thanks once again, I really appreciate your help.
     
  21. MCmalta

    MCmalta Registered User

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    Hi Rasch, the minute rim and numbers are as you said and very tough, I took care not to scratch those. What I was worried about are the UM Muller lion logo on the inside of the face and the made in Germany near the number 6.
    BTW, I like your bike, I'm a biker too.
    Regards.
     
  22. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    MC, great sounding gong, thanks for the video!! To look at the back plate you will need to remove the movement. Not at all difficult, here's how to do it:

    1) Remove the weights.
    2) Remove the pendulum.
    3) Unscrew the eyescrew at each side of the case that holds the movement support board in place. These are under the wood slides and were readily visible and accessible as seen in your video.
    4) Slide out the movement.

    To reinstall just reverse the procedure. While you have it out you can sit it on a table with something like a towel underneath, take photos of the back, and then return it to the case. The two screws you removed to slide it out will assure everything gets back in the right place.
     
  23. hemioutlaw

    hemioutlaw Registered User
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    For the Four O'clock position in your youtube link the clock is working properly. The Westminster Chime you hear is segmented into four parts and as each quarter hour is passed the the duration of the chime increases in length and only plays the COMPLETE Westminster chime at the hour mark followed by the Bim Bam representing the hour. Without hearing it at the quarter hour I can't say conclusively however I suspect your clock is operating exactly as it is designed to do so.


    Very nice clock and welcome aboard.
     
  24. Burkhard Rasch

    Burkhard Rasch Registered User
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    #24 Burkhard Rasch, Mar 16, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2017
    a bit off-topic,but:the bike is not my own,I rent it couple of years ago to try it out. It was a 500cc indian Enfield,kind of fossile,built in recent years with the english technic of the 60ies, I have a more than 30year old Yamaha XS650 for my own use.
    Best regards
    Burkhard
     
  25. MCmalta

    MCmalta Registered User

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    #25 MCmalta, Mar 17, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2017
    The XS is great also, enjoy and take care. Unfortunately, I lost my right arm and nearly my right leg due to a motorbike accident.
     
  26. MCmalta

    MCmalta Registered User

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    Hi Hemioutlaw, I spoke to the previous owner and he has confirmed that, it has always worked that way, i.e. it chimes every quarter hour and the hours themselves. The weights go down roughly the same length everyday and equal, so it must be right.
    Regards and thanks.
     
  27. blindraccoon

    blindraccoon Registered User
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    Gorgeous clock and simply beautiful chimes! Wow...

    Laurie
     
  28. MCmalta

    MCmalta Registered User

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    Hi everyone, great info and helpful tips. You all made my week :)

    I think, this is a great site.
    MC.
     
  29. MCmalta

    MCmalta Registered User

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    I managed to take the mechanism out and had a look on the back. It seems like there are no serial numbers. My friend told me that it was serviced not long ago but I'm not impressed with the service, it looks scruffy cleaning. Well, I guess as long as it is working right, it's all go. IMG_5268.jpg IMG_5269.jpg IMG_5270.jpg IMG_5271.jpg IMG_5272.jpg IMG_5273.jpg IMG_5274.jpg IMG_5275.jpg
     
  30. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Cleaning doesn't always include polishing the plates.
    What is more to worry about is the black goo around
    some of the pivots. Those indicate poor cleaning
    or a dirty environment since it was cleaned.
    There are many shops that do what is called dunk'n'swish.
    They do not take the movements apart and they do not
    polish the pivots. Several month of running often look like
    your clocks bushing after such cleaning. They usually
    charge just as much as a shop that does a proper job
    as well.
    Then, one has to ask what was meant by recently?
    Tinker Dwight
     
  31. MCmalta

    MCmalta Registered User

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    Hi Tinker, I just saw the scratch marks around the pivot points and I thought that the scratches could have been avoided while cleaning. I do not know what the cost of cleaning was and, as you said, no idea of what recently means. Mind you, the clock seems like it is working fine, so I'm not complaining.
    Thanks.
     
  32. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    #32 John Hubby, Mar 20, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
    MC, since there is no serial number or Müller lion logo stamp (logo of Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim Müller & Co - UMMC) on the movement back plate my judgement is your clock was made no earlier than 1932. This was about the time they stopped using serial numbers for their clocks although that date is still under study. The dial, pendulum, and weights are of a style that was popular all the way from pre-WWI through the 1920s so looking just at those would have caused me to estimate an age of mid to late 1920s based on those parts and the simple case design. However, the lack of the logo and serial number on the movement show it was not made until the later date. The movement itself is also somewhat different from the earlier 3-train movements made by UMMC I have documented that do have logos and serial numbers; it may be it was actually made by another maker and used by UMMC for their sales.

    I have moved the posts about your Elliott Ships Clock to a new thread so we can keep better track of both makers. Just click on the link here and it will take you to the new thread.
     
  33. MCmalta

    MCmalta Registered User

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    Hi John, I thank you for all the help. I'm happy with either dates, as I mentioned before, I'm not an expert, I just love clock so
    I am very happy with what I got. It's more of a sentimental value also.

    Thanks for moving my other post to the right place, I wouldn't have a clue how to do that.
    Regards MC.
     
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