New Haven Triple Plate—assorted questions

[Jess19721]

Happy Sunday everyone,

I’ve just completed cleaning and reassembly of a friend’s New Haven Triple plate (thanks to the Conover chapter 6 in Chime Clock repair, and Al Taketch’s Patreon video otherwise I would have been hopelessly lost). It seems to be set up correctly under a few turns of spring but I don’t have it on the test stand yet, so I may be back!

I was sadly not able to remove and clean and fully inspect the springs because of the “backwards” configuration and not being able to grip the tip of the front of the ultra-short arbor (see pic). What is the way to approach this in the future if I need to replace a spring in this movement. It reminded me of the ST 120 in terms of being stymied by unusual barrel configuration. I have a Webster winder.

Lastly, I am stumped by the hammer tips which need to be repaired. Were these originally covered in a fabric like my last Junghans, or were they just meant to be this hard substance? I don’t see a way to get the tip material out other than chip it out (it is crumbling). The tips don’t have a removable rim. Should I ream them out and replace with leather inserts?

Also does anyone happen to know the model name of this case? I can find lots of Cathedral-themed names but not this kind of Pagoda style in the old adverts.

Barrel:

 

[wow]

I do not understand what you mean by “backwards configuration” of the mainsprings.
You have the right idea about the hammers. A round piece of leather should do fine.

 

[Jess19721]

I do not understand what you mean by “backwards configuration” of the mainsprings.
You have the right idea about the hammers. A round piece of leather should do fine.

Thank you for the input on the hammers.

For the mainspring question I mean all three barrels have the barrel covers at the rear of the movement, and the longer square end winding arbor comes out the front of the movement which is the back side of the barrel (closed side). If you go to out it on the Webster there is not enough arbor to grip from the open end, so you can't slide a sleeve in from the end you need to. I'm probably really butchering explaining it. Maybe I'm just having a duh moment but I could not see how I could get a sleeve in it.

 

[wow]

Ok. Understand. I have never used a Webster. I use an Ollie Baker and had no problems with these. I have done them by hand but it’s not easy.
Maybe use a dummy arbor and remove it and replace with the original?

 

[tracerjack]

I also call them backwards barrels because of the arbor orientation; where the square of the arbor comes out the solid gear face instead of the cap side. Some make arbors so it can be wound normally. I don’t have a Webster winder so I don’t know if that is your only option. The Ollie Baker style has enough room on both sides for a sleeve, so it will work from either side. Only down side is working left handed or crossing my arms, but it works just fine.

 

[Jess19721]

I also call them backwards barrels because of the arbor orientation; where the square of the arbor comes out the solid gear face instead of the cap side. Some make arbors so it can be wound normally. I don’t have a Webster winder so I don’t know if that is your only option. The Ollie Baker style has enough room on both sides for a sleeve, so it will work from either side. Only down side is working left handed or crossing my arms, but it works just fine.

I was suspecting the Ollie Baker must have a way to do it because I didn't see the issue brought up in other threads. I was lucky enough to find a Webster on offer for $40 bucks which is why I went that direction in terms on winder choice. I took the caps off and I was able to wind it up enough In the Webster to add some fresh lubrication, but I feel badly not to have fully cleaned them.

 

[R. Croswell]

I was sadly not able to remove and clean and fully inspect the springs because of the “backwards” configuration and not being able to grip the tip of the front of the ultra-short arbor (see pic). What is the way to approach this in the future if I need to replace a spring in this movement. It reminded me of the ST 120 in terms of being stymied by unusual barrel configuration. I have a Webster winder.

You can remove the spring like the ST-120. Remove the end cover, chuck the square end in the winder, wind the spring, slip the sleeve on, let the spring down into the sleeve, remove from the spring winder, twist the sleeve to unhook the spring, pull the spring and arbor out of the barrel together. Is easier with a spring winder that clamps the barrel. Going back make sure the arbor is clamped securely, wind the spring onto the arbor, install sleeve, etc., etc.

Lastly, I am stumped by the hammer tips which need to be repaired. ...... I don’t see a way to get the tip material out other than chip it out (it is crumbling). .......Should I ream them out and replace with leather inserts?

I use a small drill bit in a Dremel tool to drill and route out the old material. I use the round leather belting and size it for a snug fit (sanding disc in the Dremel works), put a little super glue in the hole and force the leather in. Trim with a razor blade after the glue sets.

I don't know the model of the case.

I expect you will need to clean and oil the springs to get reliable operation.

RC

 

[tracerjack]

On the hammer leathers, I drill out the old hard leather with a fine Dremel tip. Once part way through, they usually crumble into little pieces you can fish out. Don’t know about the case, but agree it is unusual. Nicely made.

 

[Jess19721]

On the hammer leathers, I drill out the old hard leather with a fine Dremel tip. Once part way through, they usually crumble into little pieces you can fish out. Don’t know about the case, but agree it is unusual. Nicely made.

Thank you I shall bust out the Dremel!

 

[R. Croswell]

I believe this may be a New Haven clock Andover model from the 1920s. See this listing; Antique New Haven Clock Co mantle clock ANDOVER model. | #111128625

RC

 

[Jess19721]

I believe this may be a New Haven clock Andover model from the 1920s. See this listing; Antique New Haven Clock Co mantle clock ANDOVER model. | #111128625

RC

Excellent thank you that is it! I didn't realize that top detail was snapped off, and it would totally change the look of it, to not look pagoda like, which makes much more sense considering all the other movements I could find that looked similar definitely did not have an Asian flair, and were of the same age range. The way it was evenly snapped off made me think it was a design choice. Much thanks RC.

 

[Jess19721]

 

[DEHolz]

Hello, I have this exact model with a broken mainspring.... local horologists say they can't repair the spring (maybe because of the difficulties noted here).

Where can I find someone to repair the spring on this beauty! I missed its beautiful chime!

Any help is appreciated.

DEHolz

 

[tracerjack]

Most likely the mainspring can’t be repaired, but did the repair person say why it couldn’t be replaced with a new one?

 

[Jess19721]

Funny that they say it can't be done. Did you mean they can't repair it, or they can't replace it? Maybe they have a Webster winder and no dummy arbor like me, or they don't feel like fussing with replacing one? I see there are a few like movements available on eBay for about $40 bucks (without shipping). Of course you'd be taking a gamble on the condition of the spring, but the good news is this movement has a removable plate so even a novice could swap out a barrel (after safely letting down all three springs) without splitting the plates. Or just go with a completely new-to-you movement and leave the old one out (if the chime drum set up can be exchanged).

It would be really important to have someone that really knows clocks (if they aren't your thing) inspect the movement before just replacing it though because there is probably damage to the rachet wheel and/or other wheels up the train caused by the spring letting go.

Here's one NEW HAVEN TAMBOUR WESTMINSTER CHIME CLOCK MOVEMENT 8 day Key wind does run | eBay

 

[DEHolz]

Funny that they say it can't be done. Did you mean they can't repair it, or they can't replace it? Maybe they have a Webster winder and no dummy arbor like me, or they don't feel like fussing with replacing one? I see there are a few like movements available on eBay for about $40 bucks (without shipping). Of course you'd be taking a gamble on the condition of the spring, but the good news is this movement has a removable plate so even a novice could swap out a barrel (after safely letting down all three springs) without splitting the plates. Or just go with a completely new-to-you movement and leave the old one out (if the chime drum set up can be exchanged).

It would be really important to have someone that really knows clocks (if they aren't your thing) inspect the movement before just replacing it though because there is probably damage to the rachet wheel and/or other wheels up the train caused by the spring letting go.

Here's one NEW HAVEN TAMBOUR WESTMINSTER CHIME CLOCK MOVEMENT 8 day Key wind does run | eBay

They’ve said they can’t replace it. Two have said the size makes it impossible to find a replacement - though I don’t know the size, sorry.
I may try the eBay parts route and see if I can get a local to swap it out.

thanks!
DEH

And for the poster, above, about the missing finial, here’s what it looks like .

 

[Allan Wolff]

Here are the mainsprings for this New Haven clock and a place where they can be purchased. See yellow highlighting.
You will need to determine if it is the strike mainspring (left winding arbor) or the chime or time mainspring (Center or right winding arbor.) They both take the same mainspring.

Where are you located? Perhaps someone can recommend a repair shop if we know where you are.

 

[wow]

I replaced the chime barrel spring in one today. No problem.

 

[DEHolz]

This is great news! Thank you all. I’m located in Washington, DC area. First person, Eastern Standard Time in Purcellville, said he could not repair the spring because New Haven are non-standard. Second shop, Charly’s Watch and Clock Shop in Fairfax said he had 2-3 New Haven clocks with same issue and he is unable to find replacement springs.

I’ll pass this along to Charly’s to see if it might help. In the meantime, I’d certainly appreciate recommendations. I’m also willing to ship it out for repair.

Dawne Holz

 

[R. Croswell]

This is great news! Thank you all. I’m located in Washington, DC area. First person, Eastern Standard Time in Purcellville, said he could not repair the spring because New Haven are non-standard. Second shop, Charly’s Watch and Clock Shop in Fairfax said he had 2-3 New Haven clocks with same issue and he is unable to find replacement springs.

I’ll pass this along to Charly’s to see if it might help. In the meantime, I’d certainly appreciate recommendations. I’m also willing to ship it out for repair.

Dawne Holz

Dawne, something does not sound right here. That chart in post #17 is an old chart that's been around for years that Mile High apparently has put their name on it. I believe it is correct but just being listed doesn't mean that they it in stock, give them a call. This movement is one that most shops prefer to avoid, and some refuse all together. I suspect that may have influenced the "part not available" report. Frequently the exact part is hard to find, but a close enough part is radially available.

www.timesavers.com has the following listings that should work just fine in that clock:

16815 - 3/4" x 0.0098" x 72"
16832 - 0.874" x 0.013" x 72"

Timewise Custom Mainsprings and Antique Clock Repair, [email protected] can make most any size spring you may need and the cost is much less than you may expect.

I'm not sure what your level of experience is or how familiar you are with this movement, but I would be prepared to deal with more than just a broken spring. Frequently when a barreled spring busts there will be collateral damage in the form of bent and/or broken teeth on the main gear, 2nd. gear and 2nd arbor pinion, and bent 2nd arbor. This movement is also fussy about worn pivot holes, especially for the time section on the middle plate that hardly ever gets oiled.

RC

 

[Willie X]

It's a little better than an even chance that the the original spring can be repaired and any clock repair shop would probably do that.

In this case, It might be best if you brought them the barrel only. This way they would be 'off the hook' as far as any future warranty on the clock.

I would say that around 40 - 60 bucks would be a fair price to repair. Replacement may be a little more, both with no time warranty at all. They will test it a few times, assuming they know what th heck they're doing.

You can always send it out ...

Good luck, Willie X

 

[Rob M]

1. Showing my ignorance here but what do you mean by "triple plate?" Do you mean 3 arbors?

2. If you do not want to replace the spring (best option) you Can repair by cleanly/evenly cutting off the broken part, and cutting a new hole to connect inside the barrel. The clock will need to be wound more often but you can use the short spring on the chime arbor to minimize the impact. Does that make sense?

 

[wow]

1. Showing my ignorance here but what do you mean by "triple plate?" Do you mean 3 arbors?

2. If you do not want to replace the spring (best option) you Can repair by cleanly/evenly cutting off the broken part, and cutting a new hole to connect inside the barrel. The clock will need to be wound more often but you can use the short spring on the chime arbor to minimize the impact. Does that make sense?

Rob, I think it’s called triple plate because of the little plate at the top front of the movement. Several of the upper arbors run on that plate.

 

[R. Croswell]

Here's another view of the middle plate.

 

[R. Croswell]

It's a little better than an even chance that the the original spring can be repaired and any clock repair shop would probably do that............

Good luck, Willie X

I think you are more optimistic than me.

2. If you do not want to replace the spring (best option) you Can repair by cleanly/evenly cutting off the broken part, and cutting a new hole to connect inside the barrel. The clock will need to be wound more often but you can use the short spring on the chime arbor to minimize the impact. Does that make sense?

Rob M

That might make sense in certain circumstances, but if the performance of the clock is significantly altered it isn't really "fixed" is it?

A clock spring such as we are speaking of can fail in several in several different places, the hole in the innermost coil, at or near the inner coil. close to the outer end (often where the outer end is annealed), at the hole in the outer end, or anywhere in the length of the spring. Just where the break occurred determines if it can or should be repaired. Generally, no attempt should be made to rejoin two broken pieces of main spring. In my opinion, no attempt should be made to rehole the inner coil of a mainspring. It can be done; my very first clock job back in 1967 was a mainspring broken at the inner coil and managed to fix it, but it is difficult to do and usually leaves the spring distorted or coned. If the brake is within an inch or two of the outer end of the spring it should be nearly 100% repairable without significantly affecting the performance of the clock, otherwise for me it's the trash bin.

One thing I find interesting in this discussion is that both repair shops apparently determined that the spring could not be repaired without ever removing the spring barrels and removing the covers to verify where the spring was broken, or if it was broken at all (could be it just came unhooked for some reason). I'm not sure that I would recommend going back to the same shops, they apparently do not want to be bothered with this repair. I would at least get a quote before having the work done, and that includes installing any customer provided parts. Is what I think.

RC

 

[Rob M]

Back to the 2nd original picture - There is a book open to "Chapter 6 New Haven." Does anyone know what reference that is?

 

[R. Croswell]

Steve Conover’s Chime Clock Repair I believe.

 

[shutterbug]

I think I'd pass on any repair shop that says they can't help with your problem. It shouldn't be above the head of any legitimate repairman.

 

[DEHolz]

1. Showing my ignorance here but what do you mean by "triple plate?" Do you mean 3 arbors?

2. If you do not want to replace the spring (best option) you Can repair by cleanly/evenly cutting off the broken part, and cutting a new hole to connect inside the barrel. The clock will need to be wound more often but you can use the short spring on the chime arbor to minimize the impact. Does that make sense?

Yes, makes perfect sense... all are great ideas, but require me to take this clock apart. Honestly, I'm a good tinkerer - I can usually put something back together that I take apart. However, there are just too many moving parts on this for me to try - and I don't have the right tools to do so.

I need professional help (in more ways than just the clock!).

Dawne

 

[TEACLOCKS]

One of the difficult movement to reassemble.
Take pictures.
Draw pictures.
Good luck

 

[DEHolz]

Thanks, would still appreciate any references for clock shop in Northern VA, Wash DC area. Larry Wise of TimeWise is on board to rebuild the springs, but I need horologist to pull the barrel(s) and check for any other damage from the spring debacle. I'm willing to ship the movement (I can put it back in the case, unless that's ill advised).

Dawne

 

[R. Croswell]

Thanks, would still appreciate any references for clock shop in Northern VA, Wash DC area. Larry Wise of TimeWise is on board to rebuild the springs, but I need horologist to pull the barrel(s) and check for any other damage from the spring debacle. I'm willing to ship the movement (I can put it back in the case, unless that's ill advised).

Dawne

Larry Wise's business card advertises clock repair. Perhaps he would be willing to make the springs and install them for you?

RC

 

[DEHolz]

All,

Here we are three months later and my New Haven Andover is quietly ticking away on the mantle - brightening my day every 15 minutes with its lovely chime.

New Haven Clock.MOV

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

It was purchased in the 1920s (I think) by my husband’s grandparents. It chimed away on his parents mantle until they gave it to us about 18 years ago. The mainspring broke some random day about 15 years ago. I have tried for the past 2-3 years to get it repaired.

I posted here in late May looking for help. Allan Wolff came to my rescue. I shipped it out in mid June, and he replied with photos and an explanation of what happened when the spring went and details of the repairs required. He provided an extremely fair cost estimate and said it would take about 2 months.*

Allan worked his magic, replacing all three springs, installing 23 bushings, fixing many teeth, adjusting pallets, straightening an arbor, fixing a pivot, and much more. The repairs and testing took exactly the time he said. He shipped it back in its bench box for safety.

He then patiently helped me through a variety of issues, likely due to rough shipping from OK to VA. This was at least a dozen emails back and forth and shared photos and videos over the course of about a month. His latest note said “don’t hesitate to contact me if it gives you any more problems or if you have any questions.”

I reinstalled it in its case yesterday and surprised my husband - who gave up on it a long time ago. He was very moved to see it working again as he remembered.

In short, there are still professionals out there that do quality work for an appropriate cost and stand behind their work. Allan Wolff is certainly one of them.

Thanks again, Allan. You’re the best.

Dawne Holz

* I literally had one company quote me $1,500 to replace the spring and $6,000 for a full overhaul and about 16 months to complete the work.

 

[MSETTLE]

Clocktiques in Wake Forest, NC is repairing a similar movement from a New Haven Chester mantle chiming clock for me.