New Haven strike

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Hogshair, Apr 2, 2017.

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  1. Hogshair

    Hogshair Registered User

    Sep 6, 2014
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    Hi all, The New Haven movement I rebuilt (with your help) is back in its case and been happily ticking away for the past 2 weeks or so. It runs about 2/3 minutes slow though I have not tried to adjust it as yet, just letting it settle. The one tiny problem I have is with the strike. The clock runs and strikes perfectly for a few days and then, the strike goes out of sync. There doesn’t seem to be a pattern as to when this happens and the last time the strike went AWOL it struck 12 when it was 3pm. I have reset it and so far all seems ok. As this was my first New Haven movement I paid a lot of attention to setting up the strike...three attempts later I got it right. Or so I thought?
    So: what have I missed?

    Cheers
    Hogs.

    PS...I added a few pictures of a Victorian Kitchen clock I just bought to the Hall of Shame. Why would anyone do this?
     
  2. wow

    wow Registered User
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    If you can post photos of the movement, it will help. Is it rack and snail or count wheel?
     
  3. Hogshair

    Hogshair Registered User

    Sep 6, 2014
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    Hi WOW, here's a pic before the clean up, don't have the other pics on this computer at the moment.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Randy Beckett

    Randy Beckett Registered User
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    #4 Randy Beckett, Apr 2, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2017
    I think your movement stops the strike train by catching the edge of the slot in the maintenance cam with the maintenance lever. Could be the maintenance lever is not seating quite deep enough in the maintenance slot. The momentum of the maintenance cam would then cause the maintenance lever to occasionally jump over the edge of the cam allowing the train to run on. Pretty common ailment on these, since both the lever and the edge of the maintenance slot wear with time.

    Another possibility is the edge of the count lever is dragging on the side of one of the deep slots in the count wheel. Make sure the lever is dropping in the center of each slot, and if it is, then closely inspect for straightness the count wheels tall thin teeth between the hour and half hour positions.
     
  5. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    I think the analysis below is probably the correct explanation of your issue. I had the same problem with the same movement. The fix was that the "blade" on the count lever was just a little curved. In your photo it looks like that might be the case on your movement. Most of the time it dropped fine into the slots, but occasionally, with a small bit of variation, it would just catch the edge of one of the teeth.

     
  6. Hogshair

    Hogshair Registered User

    Sep 6, 2014
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    #6 Hogshair, Apr 13, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
    Hi all, thanks for all the help. Today was the first chance I had to get the movement out of the case (work always seems to get in the way of passion) and so checked out the count leaver and took a better picture. Seems ok, but what do you guys think? I'll let it run for a few days and keep a record of what happens.

    Cheers
    Hogs.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    It looks good to me in that particular slot. Next step would be to have it run on the test bench and watch the count lever in action real time and see if the count wheel moves steadily and aligns so that the level drops into each of the deep slots the same as this one.

     
  8. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    Apr 4, 2006
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    See post #4, I think your problem may be as shown. The locking lever must be into the slot a little more than half the diameter of the wire. AND the corner of the slot must not be rounded off. Too deep and it won't unlock, too shallow and it may not always lock. Is there a brass "helper spring" on the arbor with the locking lever? If not, adding one may sometimes help. Also often overlooked is worn pivot holes for the locking lever arbor.


    RC
     
  9. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

    Oct 11, 2010
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    The depth is limited by the count level bottoming out.
    To get it to engage deeper is a slight bend.
    The count lever will work as it is but it looks stretched to
    reach the next position. I usually like to see them straight
    but it is more cosmetic than necessary.
    Many think it is necessary to bend it to the next open slot
    when any span between teeth would work fine.
    It only looses or gains one count once and works fine
    after that. Originally the lever was straight from the elbow bend
    and pointing at the center of the count wheel.
    That is the way it was from the factory, anyway.
    The important thing is that it must not touch the sides of the slots.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  10. Hogshair

    Hogshair Registered User

    Sep 6, 2014
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    Hi all, thanks for the help, much appreciated. I've attached a few more pics to try and give a better view of the locking lever. 'R Croswell' Well spotted, and yes, there is a 'Helper' spring, see J-peg 'spring one'. The first time I saw this spring I thought 'What a mess' but refrained from altering its untidy looks until I'm more knowledgeable. Hi Tinker, so I need to bend the locking lever a tad, is that correct?
    Thanks guys
    Hogs.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  11. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    You might bend it slightly lower but it looks like it
    is engaging enough.
    I'm a little worried about the angle of the lever.
    It is normally a straight 90 degree bend into the cam.
    There are two types of methods to stop the strike.
    One uses a third lever off this arbor to block the
    warning pin.
    There are a few, like yours may be that stop against the
    cam. If it stops on the warning pin, the wheels are not
    engaged on the correct teeth and someone has bent the
    lever to compensate. If it is the type that stop on the warning
    pin, the timing is way off. This lever shouldn't even touch the
    cam when stopped. It should just sit in the slot.
    I can't really tell by the picture.
    It may be the stop on the cam type.
    I'd also check that the fly slips without too much friction
    on the arbor. It is not suppose to be too tight. It should not
    slip when running but slip when stopped.
    It may also be that the main spring is too strong and making it
    skip.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  12. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    #12 R. Croswell, Apr 14, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
    The depth of the locking lever in the cam slot looks good for this movement. New Haven used this lock on the cam method on a lot of their clocks and I feel pretty sure that's what you have here. I agree with tinker that the angle to the cam should be 90 degrees. If you correct this you will then need to reshape the count lever blade so it doesn't have to 'reach' for the next slot. If you locate the pivot hole for the count lever, and use the distance from that pivot hole to the center of the count wheel as the radius of a circle, the circle should pass through one of the deep slots on the count wheel and the blade of the count lever should follow that circle into that slot. The blade is usually flat.

    Your 'helper spring' is a bit rough looking. I'm wondering if it may be tangled on itself or in contact with any other part? The "test" for spring tension is to turn the movement upside down, the lift the count lever out of the slot. The helper spring should have enough strength to return the count lever to the bottom of the slot while the movement is inverted.

    By the way, you posted some great photos. That really helps.

    RC
     
  13. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    The count hook is probably bottoming out in the slot, which prevents the lever from lowering into the cam slot. That in turn keeps the stop lever too high to get a good bite on the pin. Reduce the distance between the hook and the locking lever and see it that improves things.
     
  14. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    This is the way it is supposed to be on this model. "it is important to adjust the drop lever carefully. It must go deeply enough into the cam slot to lock on the edge of the slot. But the locking action must be shallow enough so the lever will stay out of the cam slots each time a slot passes under the lever during the strike cycle.... locking action is safe, yet just over half the diameter of the lever is within the cam notch"; Striking Clock Repair Guide, page 10, Steven G. Conover.

    Also there are two slots in these cams; make sure there is a good sharp edge on both slots where they lock. The alternative to setting the depth just over 1/2 the diameter of the stop lever (with the count blade in a deep slot) is to set the depth so it almost but does not quite lock when the count blade is between the running teeth of the count wheel (not is a deep hour slot). Its a fairly critical adjustment, unlike other clocks where the drop lever falls deep into the cam slot.

    You can try a tiny bit more depth and see, but if the count blade 'jumps' each time the clock strikes you know you are too deep. The jumping is caused by the stop lever 'snagging' the edge of the cam slot, which will quickly round off the edge.

    RC
     
  15. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

    Oct 11, 2010
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    Thanks RC, I notic now that the warning wheel has two
    pins. This is usually an indicator that it is a stop on cam,
    because of the lower ratio.
    I've always considered these to be an attempt to make one less
    lever for cost.
    I believe you are right. Straighten the levers and check the helper spring.
    do not attempt to stretch the count lever end to a slot. As long as
    it falls between two teeth it when the stop lever falls into a notch,
    it will count right. If you start with end at 90 degrees, it should only
    require minor adjustment to not touch a slot side.
    Each tooth on the count wheel can be a stop position. There is no need
    to have it more than one tooth from 90 degrees.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  16. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Yes, I remember that type of stop now, RC. Never liked it much. However, the issue could still be that the count hook is bottoming out on the rim of the wheel and not allowing the stop lever to fall low enough. I like the "bouncing" test as an indicator that it is too low ;)
     
  17. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    The way to check it is to depower it first.
    Put the stop lever on the cam.
    Then rotate enough that you can see some
    clearance of the count levers end on the teeth,
    of the count wheel.
    Then the only other issue is if the J hook lift enough
    to get the lever out of the slot in the cam.
    There are just these two things to worry about,
    the lift and clearing the teeth on the count wheel.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  18. Hogshair

    Hogshair Registered User

    Sep 6, 2014
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    [FONT=&quot]Hi all, wow! Thanks for all the info, took me a while to digest it all though it sure helps as to understanding the relationship between the count wheel/count wheel arm/locking lever/cam.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] RC & TD. I did tweak (bend) the drop lever a tad (see pics) though I still think I might need to dismantle the movement and re-time the strike and put a decent 90 deg bend on the lever. As it is, a 90 deg bend would not allow the drop lever to enter the cam slot in its present position, so maybe you were right TD and someone in the past has miss timed the strike and so tried to compensate. I took lots of pictures before disassembly and so it went back as it was before, didn’t have enough knowledge or experience at the time to realise there might be a problem.... do now though, well, almost.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Quote RC... ‘The helper spring should have enough strength to return the count lever to the bottom of the slot while the movement is inverted.’ I did this and it passed with flying colours though I will replace that battered spring. Just have to find some brass wire.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I have to say I like these American moments, great for learning on as you can see all that’s going on and so get a better idea of how each part interacts with its neighbor. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Cheers[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Hogs.


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [/FONT]
     
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