New haven spring

[David Pardue]

Which post dose time side spring go on? Dose it go on the bottom post or the post at top of spring? It is hooked on bottom post now when it unwinds after a few days the warning leaver rest against the spring and can not release warning wheel.

 

[Dave T]

Sounds like you might have one or two spring retainer lug/tabs broken off. Look at the backside of the frame, there should be an opening in the frame where a portion has been bent at a right angle in toward the spring.

 

[shutterbug]

Yeah, sounds right to me. If you attached the spring to the upper post it might make the problem worse.
If the tab is broken off, you could make a substitute. A pic of that side of the back plate would help.

 

[Dave T]

Yeah, sounds right to me. If you attached the spring to the upper post it might make the problem worse.
If the tab is broken off, you could make a substitute. A pic of that side of the back plate would help.

Since I have the same condition, I've been wondering how to make that substitute too. My clock strikes fine during the first half of the spring wind, then it begins to interfere.

 

[shutterbug]

You'd have to make a hole, and machine an area on a 1/8" steel rod to insert it and peen the back side over to hold it. That would do fine as a substitute. You wouldn't need quite that big if you could find a smaller rod. If you don't have a lathe, you might be able to file the smaller area that goes into the hole. Once you got the ledge defined you could even use an electric drill to spin it while you touch the file to the area.

 

[R. Croswell]

Which post dose time side spring go on? Dose it go on the bottom post or the post at top of spring? It is hooked on bottom post now when it unwinds after a few days the warning leaver rest against the spring and can not release warning wheel.

i have had a couple of these and they had the spring attached to the upper stub post and that's where they seem to work. That post is made large and strong for that purpose. RC

 

[Dave T]

You'd have to make a hole, and machine an area on a 1/8" steel rod to insert it and peen the back side over to hold it. That would do fine as a substitute. You wouldn't need quite that big if you could find a smaller rod. If you don't have a lathe, you might be able to file the smaller area that goes into the hole. Once you got the ledge defined you could even use an electric drill to spin it while you touch the file to the area.

Thanks SB, But I'm not a machinist and I don't understand most of your terminology, (my problem, not yours).
I understand peening, but can't visualize what that would look like, or how it would stay in place.
And then there's this part: "Once you got the ledge defined you could even use an electric drill to spin it while you touch the file to the area"... I don't understand this at all. What's a ledge and what is spinning it?

Sorry for my ignorance!

 

[Willie X]

You can use a 4-40 machine screw as a decent repair, you can always go back and improve on this job in the future. A lock nut may, or may not, be necessary.

There should be a good set of old marks on the pillar wher the spring went originally.

Willie X

 

[R. Croswell]

If the spring is anchored on that upper post it should expand outward and away from the rest of the works so no other spring stop should be required. In all probability this clock worked fine for 100 years, there is no logical reason why it should now need a spring stop where none was if it is otherwise assembled properly.

RC

 

[shutterbug]

It sure looks like a spring attached to that upper post would expand INTO the movement to me, RC. If it were wound the other way it would expand outward. How sure are you?

 

[shutterbug]

Thanks SB, But I'm not a machinist and I don't understand most of your terminology, (my problem, not yours).
I understand peening, but can't visualize what that would look like, or how it would stay in place.
And then there's this part: "Once you got the ledge defined you could even use an electric drill to spin it while you touch the file to the area"... I don't understand this at all. What's a ledge and what is spinning it?

Sorry for my ignorance!

Think of a larger rod with a smaller part that goes into the hole. The large part can't go through, so when you peen the back side it tightens up really tight against the plate. The small part is what you'd have to make, using a file or a lathe. The drill would just speed things up a bit

 

[David Pardue]

Thanks RC

 

[Dave T]

Okay, thanks. I understand that now.

 

[David Pardue]

New haven spring more pictures

 

[R. Croswell]

It sure looks like a spring attached to that upper post would expand INTO the movement to me, RC. If it were wound the other way it would expand outward. How sure are you?

Well it just happens that that the next clock that I have on the bench right now is essentially the same New Haven movement. It is filthy but looks like it has never been messed with. I think the photos are self explainitory.

RC

 

[shutterbug]

Hmmm. I can't make it work in my mind, but sure can't argue with pictorial proof, RC. Thanks!

 

[Jay Fortner]

I've done several of these and it does go on the upper post and for the reason that RC described. Hiram Camp was pretty bright when he came up with this design. I had one blow up on me once and it did no damage to the second arbor which normally is not the case. I wish other manufacturers had thought to incorporate the design.

 

[R. Croswell]

The only issue I find, and a small one at that, is that the typical round spring clamps don't really fit in the close space but tie wire (which I usually use anyway) works just fine to restrain the spring.

RC


I didn't realize that Camp was still around when this movement was designed.

 

[Jay Fortner]

The only issue I find, and a small one at that, is that the typical round spring clamps don't really fit in the close space but tie wire (which I usually use anyway) works just fine to restrain the spring.

RC


I didn't realize that Camp was still around when this movement was designed.

Yeah,I don't know if they sell them anymore but I've got some that are made out of flat material. The old worm drive automotive hose clamps work well for these applications as long as you don't wind the spring too tightly before installing them. I had wire break on me once,no injury or damage but I had to go change my pants.

 

[Jay Fortner]

I didn't realize that Camp was still around when this movement was designed.

That appears to be a late 1800's,early 1900's kitchen clock movement so it would have been designed by either Hiram or Walter or at least they would have check off the drawings. I'm inclined to lean more towards Hiram. Wonder if a patent search could be done?

 

[R. Croswell]

I had wire break on me once,no injury or damage but I had to go change my pants.

That would surely be off putting when considering wire! I only use steel wire and nothing smaller than 18 ga. Never had one bust (maybe today will be the day) but if it is a real hoss of a spring I have put two wraps around it. Yes, the flat clips are still in the catalogs and I keep saying I'm going to order a set but the on the high side of 70 the memory does funny things. I find it easier to get a spring out of wire - just snip the wire. I usually have a fight to push a spring out of a clip and setting it up in the winder is just another step. Not sure if even a flat clip will get into this movement.

Patent search would likely state why the anchor post is located where it is. Will see if there is a patent No. on the movement I have apart.


RC

 

[harold bain]

I haven't had a wire restrainer break yet, but I don't reuse them. It is electrical tie wire, steel, .070 inches thick. It is all I have ever used, found it much easier than working with clamps. And, yes, it works on time clock springs, never needed a double wrap. These are usually twice the thickness of any springs found in common movements.

 

[David S]

I also moved from C clamps to wire...two wraps. When I service the springs in the winder I don't cut the wire loop..save it.. then use it to capture the spring after service and I know it will be the right diameter when it goes back in.

 

[harold bain]

Yeah, no need to cut the wire, it will fall off when you wind the spring in your winder, then let it unwind all the way to clean and check it. An electrician friend keeps me well supplied with the wire I use, he uses it to tie up conduit.

 

[David Pardue]

Thank you that's how I reassembled it.

 

[Rob P.]

Thank you that's how I reassembled it.

I hope you did something with that spring wire other than leave it looped over the plate like it is in the pic. That's a bodge for sure.

With the V notch cut into the plate and the bodged spring wire the movement is almost a candidate for the Hall of Shame.

 

[Jay Fortner]

I hope you did something with that spring wire other than leave it looped over the plate like it is in the pic. That's a bodge for sure.

With the V notch cut into the plate and the bodged spring wire the movement is almost a candidate for the Hall of Shame.

The V-notch is factory and that's the way the hammer spring is supposed to be.

 

[Rob P.]

The V-notch is factory and that's the way the hammer spring is supposed to be.

You're kidding me, right?

 

[R. Croswell]

I hope you did something with that spring wire other than leave it looped over the plate like it is in the pic. That's a bodge for sure.

With the V notch cut into the plate and the bodged spring wire the movement is almost a candidate for the Hall of Shame.

Not sure just what you are seeing. The V notch IS factory and receives the hammer stop piece. I can't see the actual hammer spring in the picture. That "coiled wire" that appears to end in the V notch is the factory click spring and really is not in the V notch but just looks that way. I don't see any hall of shame issues here but perhaps I'm missing something?

RC

 

[Jay Fortner]

You're kidding me, right?

No,the end of the spring could be trimmed a little just to dress it up but as it is it wouldn't constitute making the HOS.

 

[shutterbug]

The return spring seems to be in the right spot to me, but is too long, as Jay notes.

 

[R. Croswell]

OK I see what you are looking at, I was looking at the original photo if the front side. I see the return spring now on the later photo of the back side. The "V" notch serves no purpose on the back plate but receives the hammer stop on the front plate. It appears that the front and back plates are struck from the same die so the feature is on both plates, just not used on the one. I believe the "long" end of the return spring is possibly not correct. On both of the clocks in my collection, and the one I have in for service, the return spring anchors on the front plate. This is obviously a replacement spring and is longer than needed and is probably installed incorrectly and left longer than needed. Still I agree, no HOS just an assembly error. As long as it works and if the expanding main spring does not come in contact with it in that location, probably just something to make note of and change the next time the clock has to come apart.

RC