New haven mantle clock

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Salsagev, Apr 16, 2020.

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  1. Salsagev

    Salsagev Registered User

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    I will now be moving on to the new haven mantle clock (thanks to RC for giving me the clock) due to the unfortunate event that occurred with the Gilbert. I will post updates here as I go along. I have studied the movement and disassembled the clock and put it together fine. It is much easier to practice on and I am successful at doing so. Thanks.
     
  2. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Be sure to carefully observe the action of the strike train. New Haven clocks generally lock on the maintenance cam while it is more common for other brands to lock on a pin attached to the wheel above the maintenance cam. New Havens only use the pin for the warning lock.

    RC
     
  3. Thomas Sanguigni

    Thomas Sanguigni Registered User
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    In the future, before taking a clock apart, take good pictures of all of your functions. Items to photograph: are the lever placements, spring orientation, spring wires, and the placement of the gears/wheels. When you go to reassemble, you have a record. It is easy, in the beginning to forget proper placement. This simple technique will build your confidence. Study the functions of the clock. You may see the necessary repairs early on.

    I still love to photograph before and after shots. It makes me feel good, and customers like it too. Good luck.
     
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  4. heifetz17

    heifetz17 Registered User
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    I admire your persistence! When I got started, I learned on small alarm clocks and to this day I still don't like working on them! Big Bens/Baby Bens aren't too bad, but if I had to do it over, I'd certainly learn on a shelf/mantle clock! Keep it up!
     
  5. Salsagev

    Salsagev Registered User

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    Thanks. What tools do I need right now when I clean the clock?
     
  6. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Google is your best friend, google and include NAWCC in your search, you will find postings on the topic on this web site.
     
  7. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    The minimum tools for actually cleaning the clock, after you have it apart are a tooth brush, tooth picks, a container for the cleaning solution, eye protection, some sort of magnifying optics to inspect pivots and pivot holes, perhaps some 0000 steel wool, a way to dry the parts after cleaning - paper towels, compressed air, perhaps a hair dryer.

    Not really a tool, but you will obviously need cleaning solutions. You have basically three choices - water based cleaners, water based with ammonia, petroleum based cleaners. Dawn dish detergent or La's Totally Awesome Cleaner in warm water will do. If you want to brighten the brass (in addition to cleaning it) add some household ammonia to the cleaner. Commercial products such as Deox-007 are sold for clock cleaning and will brighten the brass. If a movement is really dirty and oily or greasy I pre wash the parts in an automotive degreaser such as Super Clean (Wal-Mart).

    A small or medium size ultra sonic cleaner is nice if you plan to do a number of clocks but is hardly worth the expense if you only do an occasional clock.

    You said, "I have studied the movement and disassembled the clock and put it together fine", so you already know the minimum tools required to take the clock apart. I would say that a spring winder is almost essential for clock work, along with general hand tools. You need to be able to measure accurately so a digital caliper is pretty much a necessity. You will need a way to polish pivots, there are options but a small lathe such as the Sherline makes the job easier and lets you do a host of other repair work as you advance.

    Almost every clock that you work on will have worn pivot holes that should be bushed. In some cases just cleaning will be enough to get an old clock up and running, but you should plan on installing bushings sooner or later. Do your homework and research installing bushings. There is much disagreement over what methods give acceptable results. You can "get by" using hand methods on clocks like you are now working on, but a "bushing machine" can make the job faster, easier, and more accurate for a little under $1000 bucks equipped unless you find a used one. Some are using a milling machine to do bushing work at something over $1000 bucks equipped with all you need.

    With your own practice clocks it is perfectly OK to defer what we might consider an important repair for a customer's clock until you are ready to learn that skill or acquire the needed tool. Unless you have buckets of money, it is OK to wait until you need a particular tool before buying it. You have no time line to keep so no problem getting what you need as you need it.

    RC
     
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  8. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    That was pretty nice, RC! Good on you! :thumb:
     
  9. Salsagev

    Salsagev Registered User

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    Thanks. What is the kerosene for if I use the other cleaning stuff? Should I buy an Ollie baker or make a joe Collins spring winder? A bushing machine is quite expensive so is there an alternate?
     
  10. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Learn to bush by hand. Kerosene is ok for a cleaner, but is flammable. A Joe Collins winder works well, your bigger expense is to buy the spring retainers needed. or make them.
     
  11. Salsagev

    Salsagev Registered User

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    I have kerosene already. Is this very flammable?
    How’s this shopping list look?

    merritts:
    Loop end mainspring winder for 10? Is this a small mainspring winder?
    Flat mainspring clamps for $6: is this a good price?
    Detox 007 31.50$: do I need this if I have kerosene?
    Clockworks.com:
    Let down key 4 piece set: is this better then the 19 dollar amazon let down tool that has a slot for any key?
    Amazon:
    Assembly posts for 23.50 +12 shipping
    Caliper for 9.99
    irwin tap wrench for joe Collin winder?

    Is the ISonic csbc001 ultrasonic brass cleaning solution super concentrate good for my clocks or only for ultrasonic machines?
     
  12. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    #12 R. Croswell, Apr 18, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2020
    Kerosene is flammable, that is it will burn but it does not produce significant fuel vapors at room temperature so it is not explosive like gasoline. Best to use outside because it smells and could be a problem if you spill it. Over all it is a fairly safe degreaser/cleaner.

    If this is what I think it is, it is a get by alternative for loop end open springs. Make sure you clamp= it securely and it should work for some springs.

    Wire is cheaper and works just as well. I've seen the flat ones expand under the load of the 0.018" mainsprings. If you want clamps, get the flat ones and also a set of round ones which are stronger. There will be some clocks where you can't use clamps, but they are convenient where you can except for one thing. How you going to get the spring out of the clamp without a spring winder? You can grip the spring and just cut the wire.

    Kerosene alone is an adequate degreaser/cleaner. It does not brighten brass, has a smell, and is flammable and takes a while to dry. It is inexpensive and can serve a a pre-cleaning degreaser. Being petroleum based it does not promote rust if it isn't dried right away. Deox-007 will remove tarnish and oxidation and make brass bright. You can use your choice of pre-cleaning products before Deox-007.

    You have several choices of styles for letdown tools. I would not purchase on that has a slot for the key. The letdown tool should have several "bits" with square openings to fit the winding arbors. #5, #6, #7. and #8 are the most common size. I like the "old style" tool with a wooden center grip and a bit on each end so each tool fits two size winderds, but that's just my choice.

    The assembly posts may make it a little easier for a beginner but they will leave a mark on the brass plate where the screw is tighten which says to everyone that an amateur was here. You can prevent the mark by slipping a thin piece cut from a tin can between the screw and the plate. I usually just place the movement on the cardboard core from an empty roll of masking tape.

    I have never built a Joe Collins, but Irwin tools are usually pretty good. Check the plans to see if it will work. Perhaps someone who has built one of these winders will speak up.

    I've never used this so can't say. Most cleaners that work in the ultrasonic will also work when used by hand.

    RC
     
  13. Salsagev

    Salsagev Registered User

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    The bits are double sided to fit 6 different sizes. I will try to build a joe Collins winder. When I’m done with the kerosene, do I light it on fire to dry it out? This ultrasonic cleaner is free to ship and the detox 007 is like 30 dollars to ship. Do I need a caliper for anything? Thanks.
     
  14. Salsagev

    Salsagev Registered User

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    I disassembled the clock completely and re assembled it and it works perfect. Also, what is the Mobil oil you mentioned earlier.
     
  15. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I would not light the kerosene on fire to dry it! Just blow the parts with compressed air and sit it in a warm place or in the sun and let it dry naturally if you use kerosene. 30$ to ship seems like a lot. I would call Merritt's and ask if there is a cheaper shipping option for Deox-007 I don't remember ever having to pay that much for shipping. You can also search for other sources.

    If you are going to use Deox-007, which is water based, I would use a water based degreaser like this one https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Clean-Multi-Surface-All-Purpose-Cleaner-Degreaser-1-Gallon-32oz-Dilution-Bottle/389297529 which is water based so you can just rinse and put it right into the Deox-007. Also LA's Totally Awesome All Purpose Cleaner is pretty good and only $1.00 (one dollar per bottle) at Dollar Tree.

    RC
     
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  16. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    I said this before and i did not mean it to sound mean and un caring. But why dont some people use the Google search function and do searches with NAWCC in the search, most or all questions have been answered on this web site, d a little work of your own and use the search to help find questions, rather than asking the same things, over and over. Most times i post on here i do a google search and read all the results i get from postings on this web site. I am glad there are newbies and i am not trying to discourage asking questions.
     
  17. Salsagev

    Salsagev Registered User

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    Oh, ok, I forgot there was a search feature.
     
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  18. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    The search feature on this website is not great, just use Google and include NAWCC in your search, i use it often and it works well.
     
  19. Salsagev

    Salsagev Registered User

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    Actually, should I just get a Cheap ultrasonic cleaner because i have other clocks to do too? Some people say on amazon that it works well.
     
  20. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    I bought mine from Amazon and i posted it on here. It works fine, you dont always need a well known brand name for some tools.
     
  21. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Kevin, I think there are other things to consider than just finding a previously posted thread that may (or may not) answer the same question. Perhaps most important is the social aspect of getting to know someone and their clock and to interact with that person and others who share different ideas that specific case, not a case that was closed years ago. I suspect that 90+% of the questions asked here have already been answered, so the message board could theoretically just be replaced with an indexed data base.........I really hope that never happens. These forums are about people and what they are doing with their clocks now.

    You and I have followed this message board long enough to know that sometimes the answers given are not correct and some of the advice given isn't always the best, and what may have been thought to be correct 10 years ago may have been proven not to be, Nano oil is one example. Plus a lot of posts are by newbies who may think they have discovered a shortcut that's the neatest thing since sliced bread, but a few years later wouldn't think of doing it that way today. Cleaning a clock movement in a microwave oven comes to mind. Yes, one would do well to search the archives, but a rank newbie often doesn't even know what to ask or the terminology to use to ask. So I say keep posting and asking the questions and anyone who doesn't care to participate when beginners ask the same questions that have been answered before can just ignore.

    Now what does annoy me, is when someone jumps into a thread mid stream and doesn't bother to read what has already been posted and starts restating essentially what's already been said by others,. And those who insist on hijacking a thread and turning it into their conversation rather than the OP's conversation and/or introducing their own problems or questions which should be in a new thread.

    RC
     
  22. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    I have helped the poster in many private messages and other posters as well too. And behind this mb i do a fair bit of helping newbies as well. Research is the greatest tool i have, i spend many hours doing this. Yes it is social interaction with newbies and others, is what the message board is about. This website has a wealth of knowledge and knowledgeable posters.
     
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  23. heifetz17

    heifetz17 Registered User
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    The whole purpose of a message board is to ask questions and interact with other people. If everyone just went straight to google there wouldn’t be much point in having a message board! That being said, I agree research is key. I usually search for my answers first and come here if I can’t find what I’m looking for or need additional information.

    I bought my ultrasonic cleaner from Harbor Freight for something like $70. Pretty inexpensive and it works quite well, but the tub is a little on the small side.

    I use this dust blower to help dry parts and it also works quite well. Economy Dust Blower Rubber 5 x 2 Inches

    Lastly, I’m using the Webster spring winder from Timesavers with various spring clamps and spring sleeves. It has its pros and cons but has served its purpose and hasn’t let me down yet.
     
  24. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    You don't need that cheap spring winder. The movement plates will work just as well for open springs. Just put in the main wheel and wire it in place so it can't turn, and wind the spring up and restrain it. Alternately, you can put the second wheel in too, and lock it in place with wire. That keeps the wire out of your way. Either way will work.
    Regarding ultrasonic cleaners - I ended up with at least three of them before getting smart and investing in one big enough to really do the job. Save money by getting the best first.
     
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  25. Salsagev

    Salsagev Registered User

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    So, I just used the beat calculator for the pendulum length and it says 5,6th wheel. What does that mean? Which is the center wheel? Do you think a 70 dollar ultrasonic cleaner will do? There is also one that has a steam cleaner; is this necessary? Can I use kerosene in the cleaner? Or, should I get a 20 dollar one? Thanks.
     
  26. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    The beat calculator I sent you numbers the wheels (larger gears) and pinions (small gears) and has blanks perhaps for more wheels and pinions than some clocks have. The only ones you need to count are the escape wheel and pinion, and all the other wheels and pinions after the second wheel and pinion. Do NOT count the first or great wheel and do NOT count the second wheel or pinion. Leave the other spaces blank. The center wheel is the gear on the shaft that turns the minute hand.

    The $70 ultrasonic sold by Harbor Freight works just fine for clocks like yours. The tank is too small for some larger clocks. For about twice that amount you can get one with a larger tank.

    You do not need a steam cleaner.

    You should not use kerosene or any other flammable liquid in an ultrasonic cleaner because of the fire hazard. The one you buy will probably come with a warning to that effect. The ultra sonic can cause flammable liquids to produce vapors that can easily ignite even with liquids the do not usually produce a lot of vapors. Use only non-flammable cleaners in the ultrasonic.

    RC
     
  27. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    If you're intending on working on clocks, spring for the largest US you can afford. You won't regret it down the road, because if you go small, you will probably scale up later and have one that you don't use. I learned the hard way, and have two of those small ones. In fact, I think I tossed them out when I recently moved.
     
  28. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Perhaps this picture will make it more clear.

    RC

    new-haven-calc.jpg
     
  29. Salsagev

    Salsagev Registered User

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    I got that down and it says 3.33 inches 8,46 cm
    12342.86 bph. Am I ready to clean the movement? If I I am how should I start?
     
  30. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Step 1) is take some pictures.
    Step 2) is take more pictures.

    I'm assuming that you haven't yet acquired a spring winder, ultra sonic cleaner, or any special tools. Look at the instructions given when you took the Gilbert apart and follow the same procedure here.

    Step 3 is let down the springs and tie with wire.
    Step 4 is remove the nuts or screws and carefully lift off the front plate trying not to let anything be disturbed
    Step 5 take more pictures
    Step 6 remove each part and note where it goes - you can punch holes in a paper plate and stick each part in in the position it goes relative to the other parts.
    Step 7 normally you would now remove the main springs from their arbors. That isn't always easy. There is a pin on the arbor that hooks into the end of the spring that has to be unhooked. Try holding the spring while turning the winder backward a little while pulling - it may come off but probably won't. Usually you need to pish two small screw drivers between the spring and the arbor on both sides of the pin, then pry gently between the spring and the hub of the big gear and see if the spring will slip off. Don't use a lot of force, if the screwdrivers have the spring coil clear of the pin it will slip off fairly easily. If you have long nose pliers, sometimes the ends of the pliers can be used in place of the two screw drivers. I would begin by going back to your Gilbert clock and practice removing both main springs before attempting the New Haven.
    Step 8 Get some Dawn dishwashing detergent and an tooth brush and some tooth picks. In small container put some warm water and some Dawn - make a pretty strong mixture - brush the plates with a tooth brush and clear out the pivot holes with tooth picks (called pegging), rinse with warm water, blot with paper towels, blow dry with a hair dryer. Do the same for the small parts one or two at a time then dry.
    Step 9 use gloves and face protection, get a good grip on the main spring and snit the wire with wire cutters, slowly relax your grip and allow the spring to uncoil. I like to clean the springs with a water-based strong automotive degreaser, let it sit overnight, brush, rinse with warn water, wipe and blow dry.
    Step 10 Without a spring winder, go back to the instructions given for the Gilbert and use the clock movement plates as an improvised spring winder to rewind the springs onto the arbors.
    Step 11 Put everything back just like it came apart.

    RC
     
  31. Salsagev

    Salsagev Registered User

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    Should I put the springs in the kerosene instead? Does it really need to sit overnight?
     
  32. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Kerosene and the caustic waterbased cleaners won't harm the steel. The longer the spring soaks the less brushing and scrubbing youneed to do. Kerosene is less expensive if you buy from a gas station. The stuff they sell in stores as fuel for kerosene lamps isn't real K1 kerosene and doesn't do too well.

    The chemistry is different between kerosene and caustic waterbased cleaners. Kerosene is a petroleum product and will dissolve the old oil. The water based cleaners brake down old oil converting it some thing that will mix with water and wash away. Both need time to work. If you want immediate results use 0000 steel wool.

    RC
     
  33. Salsagev

    Salsagev Registered User

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    What about the oiling the spring?
     
  34. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Oil the spring before you rewind it.

    RC
     
  35. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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  36. Salsagev

    Salsagev Registered User

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    Is a 3 liter ultrasonic cleaner good?
     
  37. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    I think your question has been answered on ultrasonic cleaners.
     
  38. Salsagev

    Salsagev Registered User

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    Here, I will make that more clear: is the harbor freight 2.5 liter suitable for my clocks including kitchen clocks, this clock, wall clocks?
     
  39. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Posting number 26
     
  40. Salsagev

    Salsagev Registered User

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    What about the kitchen and wall clock factor? They look quite bigger.
     
  41. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    These clocks are bigger but the movements are not any bigger than your New Haven. If you get into three- train chime clocks and tall case (grandfather) clocks these are bigger and some of the plates won't fit into the Harbor Freight US cleaner. That machine is fine most other clocks if you don' overload it. I think you have already gotten good advice on this topic. If the Harbor Fright unit is all you can afford, it will serve you well for most clocks. If you can afford about twice that amount one that's a little larger would be a better choice.

    RC
     
  42. Salsagev

    Salsagev Registered User

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    Ok, thanks for the clarification. Can I buy two, maybe, to fit bigger movements? I have fully cleaned the clock up with kerosene and dish soap. I let it dry overnight and reassembled it fully. I oiled the springs and the pivots. One thing I was concerned about was if I used kerosene, I blow dry it and I might catch on fire? I was thinking of purchasing an ultrasonic cleaner today but right now I am working on two train American clocks. So I might only need one now but if maybe if I do more complex movements, I break it up in half and use the other bought?
     
  43. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    The larger one is needed for movements with larger plates, like chiming clocks. You don't need two smaller US if you have to do more than one clock at a time. The cleaning takes only about 15 minutes, so you can easily do one after the other without losing much time.

    Uhralt
     
  44. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    How are you drying your parts, just air dry? Best to go with one u.s.
     
  45. Salsagev

    Salsagev Registered User

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    Just frying with air. I was too concerned with fire hazard.
     
  46. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Apr 11, 2002
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    Air is fine, no it wont catch fire.
     
  47. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Sep 4, 2008
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    You put the parts in an airfryer? :D

    Uhralt
     
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  48. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
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    You only want to heat it to 180f max. That's way less than the ignition point of kerosene. First, you should blow it with compressed air so the liquid ( kerosene or rinse water ) is gone. The heat is just to finish drying. You want it hot enough that you can't hold it but not hot enough to burn you.

    RC
     
  49. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    I guess "frying" was a typo. It was supposed to be "drying". F and D are next to each other on the keyboard.

    Uhralt
     
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  50. Salsagev

    Salsagev Registered User

    Feb 6, 2020
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    What would happen if I did? Isn’t it equivalent to the oven cleaning feature which burns of all the grease?
     

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