New Haven "Harmonious" movement Questions

MuseChaser

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I had added a post to this thread earlier today...

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/new-haven-harmonious-model.107462/post-1445240

Not realizing it was in the general forum and not the clock repair forum. My apologies; that post probably didn't belong there. If the moderators feel it would better to move it here, please feel free to do so, or I could repost it here... whatever you feel is best.

Anyway, I've disassembled the movement for cleaning. Two arbors remain captive in the front plate; the center arbor and the arbor with the gathering pallet.

Center Arbor.jpg

The center arbor has what looks like the equivalent of a "pressure" washer on a 400-day clock; creates friction so that the minute hand turns with the arbor, but not so much that you can't move the minute hand independently to set it or that it binds the movement. Is that what is indicated by "A" in the above picture? If so, should it allow the washer above it (in the pic) to be compressed closer to the pinion below it? Right now, it seems immovable...

Also... a few more questions referring to marked spots in the following pic..

SideView.jpg

In order to remove the center arbor, does the pinion indicated by "B" simply pry off, using equal force on two sides with appropriate sized implements and protection over the plate? SHOULD I remove it for cleaning, or just clean it in place and not mess with it?

I did pry off the gathering pallet ("C," just in case I'm using the wrong term) using a similar method and it worked fine, and that arbor is no longer captive. When I re-assemble, is the orientation of the pins on that pallet in relation to the pins "D" important when staking the pallet back on? What are the four slots on that wheel for? I saw no levers that engaged them... ?

Thanks in advance for any clues or input. Also, as I had asked in the post to which I linked above, ANY suggestions or tips for alignment of the various strike-train-related pins, wheels, etc., would be much appreciated. I can't find this specific movement in the three Conover books I have, and I'm scared out of my mind. I DID take LOTS of pictures... ;)
 

wow

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Concerning the center arbor: if the arbor is sloppy in the plate, you will need to remove the arbor and bush that hole. If not, just leave it and clean well. In order to remove it you will need to remove the pinion. It is pressed on and must be pried off. I usually use two paint can openers to begin prying it off. Once it is far enough to slip on a crows foot tool, I finish by screwing the hand nut on the arbor to protect the threads and tap it off with a plastic hammer.
The little washer on the arbor is a tensioner spring and should be tight enough to allow the hands to be set but not tight enough to keep them from turning by hand pressure.
The gathering pallet will be put back on after reassembly and should be put on loosely so it can be adjusted to allow the rack to drop. Then it can be tapped back on tightly with a hollow punch.
 
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Willie X

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To you ... it's a Southern saying. You can get bit disturbing something that is not causing you any trouble. Willie X
 

SuffolkM

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These two parts don't typically have a lot of wear, so leaving them in the plate is ok (even though it might rightly be a bit frustrating, and also make them a bit accident-prone during handling...there are down sides). Do try and get the pivot holes as clean as you can, eg. soak lighter fluid and mop out any gunge, or spin a fine polishing compound in them (which you must, of course, remove with absolute certainty before the clock is running again! ;)). Removing these parts can be easier with a micro-torch to add heat, as the brass and steel have different thermal expansion properties, but this can cause problems with solder repairs from the past.

A split stake is a very helpful tool to allow you to create a pad around the middle of an arbor that has parts attached either side (preventing you using a hollow stake). Also a crows foot and lastly paint tin openers to get even prying forces.

Best of luck
Michael
 
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R. Croswell

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Pinion "B" will come off a lot easier if first heated for a few seconds in the flame of a small butane torch. I would remove gathering pallet "C" because it is "timed" with the other parts of the strike train and will likely need to be repositioned anyway, and that pivot hole is subject to wear. Pinion "B" is often left in place if the pivot hole is not sloppy (as has already been suggested).

RC
 

shutterbug

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I would also remove the gathering pallet. It will make reassembly a lot easier.
 

Willie X

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For me, remove or not remove is solely based on a wear test that was done back when the movement was all together. If it's worn, then you will need to 'wake the sleeping dog'. :) Willie X
 

MuseChaser

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Thanks for the input and advice as always, everyone! The center arbor hole seems to be fine, so I've left that pinion untouched, but did remove the gathering pallet without any trouble. I've cleaned everything with mineral spirits and done a "test" partial re-assembly; the first time I put the strike fly and the wheel/pinion that drives it (and has the stop pin (right term?) on the wheel) in upside down. They fit fine that way... but the pin doesn't ever come near anything which is what alerted me to the issue and possibility after scratching my head for a while. I have not added the springs in their barrels mounted on the back partial plate, nor the strike-chain-associated levers. Everything is spinning very nicely and quietly... a gentle push on the second wheel of the time chain sets it in motion and it continues on its own for quite a while, almost like a gyroscope. HUGE improvement.

I won't be able to get to this movement again for a couple days, but would greatly appreciate guidance in what needs to be aligned where before closing it up, in terms of the strike chain, snail, warning wheel, gathering pallet, etc. As I mentioned in the other thread or earlier in this one ( can't remember), I didn't see this specific movement in Conover's books and I'm kind of shooting in the dark as a newbie. This is one of the first full tear downs I've done of a non-400-day movement, and the first of this particular movement ever.

Thanks.
 

MuseChaser

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Well, I've been working on this movement all day, and even with Conover's books and the article about rack and snail movements on this site, I can't get the bim-bam strike to work correctly. Conover's strike book doesn't show this movement. To those of you fairly familiar with these types of movements, Conover's book most likely describes enough additional hints to assist in the process of adjustment, but for a duffer like me there's just not enough guidance. I've, literally, dis- and re-assembled this movement at least twelve times so far... at least I'm getting good at it. The time side works great.

The snail advances correctly, the gathering pallet moves the rack fine, the rack tail lands on the appropriate lobes of the snail, the hammer tails and hammers are activated by the hammer lifting pins on the third wheel arbor, the locking lever stops the lock pin after striking... all of the basics seem to be OK.

The issue is that at the end of a strike sequence, it stops one hammer early... the lower tone of the bim-bam doesn't sound. It sounds on the half hour first, followed by the higher tone... but no lower tone. At the next hour, the un-played lower tone from the half hour sounds, then the bim-bams start for that hour strike sequence, but the last low tone doesn't sound... and that's the way it continues. The last "Bam" of any sequence is always missing, then that missing "bam" starts the next sequence, followed by normally spaced "bim-bams," until the last "bim" plays without a bam.

I've tried reorienting the fourth wheel (the one with the single warning pin), along with the third wheel (which has a secondary wheel with the hammer lifting pins, and also to which the gathering pallet is staked).

Here's a couple pics, in case they're useful:

The front of the movement...

NewHavenFront.jpg

The back of the movement with the plate removed. "D" indicates the wheel on the third arbor with the hammer lifting pins; should I be able to turn that wheel on the arbor to adjust the position of the pins? It feels like it's locked in place, and I don't want to force it. "E" shows the single warning pin. "F" indicates the lifting lever (I think?)....

NHBacktNoPlate.jpg

This is a view of where the movement stops after a sequence. Note that "A" shows the lower tone hammer tail still being only slightly raised by its pin. "B" is where I wondered if that was a slip/adjustable fitting, or if it is meant to be fixed, as it appears to be now. "C" is the gathering pallet, which is loosely staked right now. Although in this picture it looks like it might interfere with the rack, it does not... that's just the angle of the photo.

NHHammertailPins.jpg



One more view of where the train rests at the end of a strike sequence. "G" is the hammer tail that should have struck but didn't, and "H" is the warning/locking pin resting on the ... locking lever? Unlocking lever?


NewHavenTailWarningPin.jpg

If anyone can describe where I've gone wrong or an alignment procedure, I'd be VERY grateful. Was hoping to have this buttoned up and running this afternoon; the case is ready and waiting, the time train is good to go... just can't get past this hurdle.

AND...as always, ... PLEASE correct any incorrect terminology. I'd hate to further muddy the waters by using words incorrectly.

Thanks so much.

EDIT/FOLLOWUP:

All of the above observations were without the verge in, and without the time train wound. I had decided to just be happy with getting close for now, and placed the movement back in the case and buttoned it up to take a break from this one until I heard back from the experts here. Strangely enough, once it was in the case and wound, it's running great... and STRIKING CORRECTLY?!?!?

Do strike trains need the tension from a wound time train with verge in place to work correctly? I have NO idea what I did to get it work correctly... which is almost as frustrating as not solving it, since I haven't learned anything and can't apply it to future clocks.

Sooo.. despite the clock working great right now... I'd still love to hear anything you all have to say.
 
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shutterbug

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I think you can adjust that out at the gathering pallet. Take note of the pallet stop position. Now, at some point during the strike, stop the fly when the last note of the bim-bam sounds. Hold it there while you loosen and turn the GP to the position noted earlier (also raise the rack). Then it should work for you.
 
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MuseChaser

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Thanks, SB. I'll give it a try and report back. Much appreciated.
 

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Rockford's early high grade movements by Greg Frauenhoff