NEW HAVEN CLOCK fan issue

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by John P, Apr 17, 2017.

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  1. John P

    John P Registered User
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    I was hoping you guys could help me figure out what to do about the fan drive
    problem on this New Haven shelf clock.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    What was in the space between those 2 small gears that would drive
    the fan?
    [​IMG]

    john p
     
  2. wow

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    John, it looks like someone has changed the arbor. They either replaced it with the one in the photo or they removed the pinion and installed those two gears. It should have a lantern pinion with pins which mesh with the wheel. Unusual movement for me, so I could be totally wrong. Maybe someone else will shed more light.
     
  3. Dave T

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    Not sure this helps but here's a New Haven of a slightly different configuration. (Crusty old movement prior to cleaning) Looks like that arbor has been changed to me.

    [​IMG]
     

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  4. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Update, Just found a clock like yours on the net. Looks like yours is correct, but appears to be missing the fan.
    If you search for New Haven movements on the famous for sale site you can see it.
     
  5. R. Croswell

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    Search for, "Weird Antique NEW HAVEN Clock Movement" on that 'famous for sale site' shows one with the fan and that same soldered-on pinion.

    John, is it possible that you have the wrong arbor installed to line up with the fan pinion? Obviously one of the two arbors shown is incorrect.

    RC
     
  6. wow

    wow Registered User
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    So, RC, I looked at the one on the web and I still don't understand why there are two gears on the fly arbor. Any idea?
     
  7. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Someone's strange idea for a repair. Need to find a replacement assembly.
    Willie X
     
  8. David S

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    How about making a new lantern pinion? Seems like an interesting challenge.

    David
     
  9. wow

    wow Registered User
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    I would just put another fly and arbor on from my bone pile. I still don't understand the two gears posted by the OP and the same two shown in the photo on eBay. Not a coincidence.
     
  10. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I get the feeling it was an attempt to create a lantern
    pinion. One could solder trunnions pins between the leaves
    of the pinions.
    Just a guess.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  11. Jasons34

    Jasons34 Registered User

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    Just my opinion but looking at the one on that selling site makes me think that the one closest to the fly is to prevent the fly from being moved closer to that other gear. That fly has notches in it so it misses nearby gears but if that fly was able to slide even closer to the gear than the fly would most likely hit something then. That is my only thought as to why the 2 gears basically next to each other
     
  12. Dave T

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    Jason, That makes a lot of sense to me too. Not sure why they would use a gear as a stop for the arbor, but it would work, (to keep the fan from sliding). A lot of arbors have a notch in it to provide a lock to hold the fan. But this one doesn't.
     
  13. shutterbug

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    I wonder if the two gears are supposed to be one, and they are just separated. Odd configuration though. I've never seen one with gears.
     
  14. wow

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    I thought about that too, Shutt, but makes no sense why they would put two together. Why not just one wide one. If John's photos were the only photos we had, I would say it has to be a changed arbor. But....since the one showed up on eBay with the same set-up, it must have been a factory thing. Crazy!!!
     
  15. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Maybe it's the same movement.
    Willie X
     
  16. Tinker Dwight

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    Are both pinions the same size?
    The one on evil bay has the outer pinion engaged.
    Are both pinions soldered? It looks like the inner one is.

    I don't think the one on evil bay will work. The fan has
    cutouts to clear the lower lantern pinion.
    When out of the notch like that it will hit.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  17. David S

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    Can someone pm me with the link to the one on ebay? I searched and can't find anything close.

    David
     
  18. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Did some more searching. If you search for "old orginal New Haven w/1 hammer" you can see the same movement with the lantern pinion and the notched fan. This appears to be the way it came from the factory.
    I think the 'weird antique new haven' has had modification, same as the one we're discussing here. Odd that two movements have has the same modification though.
     
  19. David S

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    thanks Tinker but that item number didn't register on ebay. Typo? or I just don't use ebay enough.

    David
     
  20. David S

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    Well Tinker I have tried the item number and skyped my son in law to try and we can't get any joy with that item number. Not sure if it is because we are in canada or what. I assume we are talking about ebay and not craigslist or...?

    Hate this cat and mouse game that these site rules put us through.. We are an educational site and trying to help each other and attempting to reference things that are on other sites. But we have to keep it covert so that in the future folks reading this thread won't have a clue....Opps did I just say this.. :(

    David
     
  21. wow

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    #21 wow, Apr 17, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
    I just looked at it on eBay again. It is still there. Ends tomorrow. It can't be the same movement unless the OP is trying to sell it. I might buy it just to figure the crazy thing out.

    I just did the search RC gave in his post #5.
     
  22. R. Croswell

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    One difference between the OP's movement and the 'other one' we are discussing is that in the 'other one' the pinion and wheel are in mesh. It is a strange movement with the strike control lever bracket stuck out the side on a bracket. Perhaps this is a limited production model that used a fan arbor from a different model movement and rather that tooling up for something different they just added another pinion where needed.

    Perhaps the pinion in this thread is cracked and has just slipped out of alignment. Can we learn if the pinion is indeed loose?


    RC
     
  23. wow

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    Looks like there is solder on the arbor under one of the gears. Maybe been moved.
     
  24. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Super Moderator
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    I'm with you Willie. I have worked on a lot of New Haven movements and I have never seen a factory set up that looked remotely like that. I'd be looking for a fan and arbor from another New Haven movement to replace what the OP has.
     
  25. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Super Moderator
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    I am prepared to live with this minor inconvenience to ensure the message board retains it's educational focus and doesn't turn into a for sale site.
     
  26. Willie X

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    Peter,
    It looks like there may indeed be two of em! Clocks are full of surprises, that's for sure.
    Willie X
     
  27. Dave T

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    I found several in the sold section. And all of those have the pinion.
     
  28. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Super Moderator
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    I remain unconvinced Willie. Seems to me there would be no margin for error even if the two pinions were pressed together. And given the amount of end shake in these movements, I doubt the manufacturer would have gone with that design.
     
  29. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Super Moderator
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    Yes Dave, I have searched my records and completed auctions and I cannot find a match for this setup.
     
  30. R. Croswell

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    Perhaps if someone can identify th clock, then Trans' books or a search for other examples might shed some light.
     
  31. John P

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    I had removed the fan to get a better look at things and after studying on it
    for a while, pressed one of the gears over to line up with the driving wheel (S4).
    This worked fine and the movement is up and running. The strike runs good
    and is making no noise.
    There had to be some sort of synthetic material between those gears that rotted out over time. Not sure what they had back then, maybe the stuff used to make wall switch plates.
    synthane?

    I try to understand why things are made the way they are as I move along in clock repair, but I'm always happy to get it working.

    thanks for the input.
     
  32. wow

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    Glad you got it going, John. Could you post photos of the clock case it is in? I guess you could be right about a synthetic material between the two gears, but what was the purpose? Still a mystery to me.
     
  33. R&A

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    It might have been there to take out the harmonics of the sound. I have had some butterfly's in the past that sounded like a train going down the tracks. Very strange set up.
     
  34. shutterbug

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    I'm very curious about the second gear, and what purpose it serves. I just checked the one on the auction site, and it still has 6 hours before the sale is complete. After it is finished, it is legal to link to it here.
     
  35. David S

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    Well it will certainly make this thread more understandable. Still don't know why we can link it if we don't discuss value / price etc. We are adults here and understand the intent of the rules...I hope.

    David
     
  36. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    #36 shutterbug, Apr 18, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
    It's a good rule, David ... but in cases like this it would be tempting to make an exception. We just can't do that, unfortunately. It would be possible to post the picture from the auction here if permission to do so were granted by the owner. That would also keep the thread intact for future searchers. I have contacted the owner of the pictures and asked for permission to use them here. I also gave him a link to this discussion, and if he joins us he may just post them himself :)
     
  37. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    I see a completed listing for the same movement. This is not the first time he's had it for sale.
    Is it legal to post that link?
     
  38. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    #38 shutterbug, Apr 18, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
    link
    Yes, just note that when it disappears from their site the posted will be gone too :)
    edit: I just received permission to use the photo(s) from the sale. Here's the one that is most desired:
    [​IMG]
     
  39. Dave T

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  40. Tinker Dwight

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    I believe the same person or related put the extra pinion on there
    to keep the fan from sliding sideways, rather than fix the notch
    on the fan.
    I have a clock that the dimple on the fan had warn off and was
    no longer keeping the fan in place.
    I carefully supported the arbor and repunched the dimple.
    I suspect the problem is that if one slides the fan off to tighten
    the fan, the dimple bends the center piece too much when installing
    the fan, making it loose. Rather than deal with the dimple, they are
    using the pinion as a collet to keep the fan from sliding too far.
    I would have thought there might be a better way.
    I don't believe this was done this way from the factory.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  41. shutterbug

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    That makes sense Tinker, but only if the OP is also the seller on the auction site. Otherwise we have two movements with the same set-up :)
     
  42. THTanner

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    I recently worked on a loose fan where someone previously had drilled a small hole through the arbor and installed an S wire to keep the fan from moving around. It worked well but looked a bit funky. I ended up leaving it in place since the hole was already there and just tightened the slot spring on the fan to limit the looseness on the arbor. As you suggest, this extra pinion probably served the same purpose.

     
  43. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Well, it would stop the fly in one direction but not the other, so I wouldn't see this as plausible. A company wouldn't use a cut gear for this either, I don't think. They had several plastics back then but it's funny that these two movements pop up with no one ever seeing this feature before.
    Willie X
     
  44. Tinker Dwight

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    It is a strange one at that. I also don't see why one would want to add inertial
    mass to the arbor but maybe that was the intent. The strike stalls and the little
    bit of additional fly wheel effect gets the strike past the stall point.
    Not a particularly good idea but possible.
    Do note that the fly of the ebay one is not in the notch as well.
    I get the feeling this was done by the same person.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  45. John P

    John P Registered User
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    Here are the pictures of the repair and the clock. It defiantly is not the one on that site.
    The fan was tight and has a good fit to the arbor. The extra gear was not there to hold the fan over. Not sure why it was built that way unless there was some fiber in between the two.
    The movement has a rack and snail set up. I am missing the hammer.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  46. R. Croswell

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    Well while we are speculating here's one more possibility that makes sense to me. Perhaps this was an attempt to make a quieter running strike train (lantern pinions are noted for being noisy). So there were originally THREE gears on that arbor......the two brass ones and a fiber one sandwiched between the two of brass. Then over time the fiber one wore out and was removed or fell apart. So the one on eBay, someone positioned one of the pinion gears to line up and run much like John did using a two-gear sandwich?

    RC
     
  47. wow

    wow Registered User
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    So, John, was that gear that you moved soldered or simply pressed on the arbor? Does it look like it was added or original?
     
  48. wow

    wow Registered User
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    RC, I see your point, but why not just put a fiber gear only? What good would the two brass ones do?
     
  49. R. Croswell

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    The fiber gear might have been laminated and being backed on each side would help prevent it from delaminating. It may also have been bonded (glued) to the brass gear faces to secure it from slipping. Heck, I don't know, just one more idea with no proof. But with two seemingly identical examples I find it hard to accept that this was not a factory design.

    RC
     
  50. John P

    John P Registered User
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    Not soldered, just a press fit. Cant see why they went to all that trouble, the fan operation is silent. I did smooth them up with a jewelers file and paper.
     
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