New Hamilton 16s RR Case Model 9 Discovered !

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by Jim Haney, Apr 24, 2004.

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  1. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    #1 Jim Haney, Apr 24, 2004
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
    I have stumbled upon a Hamilton 16S Railroad case that as far as I know has not been seen before.

    Look at the pictures and give me your opinion. I have discussed this case with some Hamilton experts. Don D., Terry H., and we think that it is the missing Railroad case number 9.

    I hope that by this post, if there are any more "out there" this will bring them out.


    In any case it is interstering and with Dr.Don Dalhberg's discovery of Dr. Ravels Hamilton records it is possible we are can become more knowledgeable.

    Comments Please.
     

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  2. terry hall

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    New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    I was able to view this case first hand at Ft. Mitchell Regional. It was wonderful to examine it. Condition is "up there"!

    The case numbers do match.

    The style of the ID stamping in the case back is the same as known examples of Models 3,4,and 6.

    It is believed these cases were made by Fahys, but I don't believe supporting documentation has been discovered (correct me please). I have always based this on the similarities between the rigid bow fahys case and the hamilton model 4 and the similarities of the 181 Illinois case to the model 6 hamilton.

    It seems there have been no advertisements discovered for this case, but if they exist, it would certainly help.

    The existance of the case has been mentioned in some records discovered by Don Dahlberg at the NAWCC Library.

    I understand these records will yield much more info in the future.

    Great find Jim!
     
  3. Don Dahlberg

    Don Dahlberg Registered User
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    New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Here is Lowell Halligan's (Director of Hamilton's Sales Research in the 1940s) take on the model 9 case.

    Railroad Model - Fahys Case - This case was first used with the 974 Lever - billed as follows - 974 L "A" Traffic Special - (Number of case model not noted) - Later used in connection with the 992 Movement.
    Cases received January 1931 - Yellow 10K Gold Filled cost $3.25 - White 14K Gold Filled $3.25 (only price notation on Case Serial Records was 1/13/31 for 170 of each color at price above quoted)

    The illustration matches the case posted by Jim.

    Don Dahlberg
     
  4. HenryB

    HenryB Registered User

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    #4 HenryB, Apr 25, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2012
    New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Just a comment for the non-RR Hamilton fellas.

    Shugart's, at the end of the Hamilton section, shows two pages of Hamilton Cases.

    Number 9 is conspicous by its Absence.

    The bow, where it meets the watch is slightly different on this watch from those cases pictured in Shugart's.
     
  5. terry hall

    terry hall Registered User
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    New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    That is correct Henry...

    Each case 'model' shares its own features..so i would expect to see differences when compared to other models. An one also has to consider the cases pictured there were produced by different manufacturers... Wadsworth, Keystone, Star, Fahy's.... each manufacturer would of course have their own way of making a case.

    It is believed the Model A and Model 11 share the same center case ring design, only the bezel pattern and bow pattern make them what they are.
     
  6. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Jim:

    That case is a nice find - congratulations!

    And, thanks for sharing it with us.

    Kent
     
  7. Don Dahlberg

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  8. Tom Huber

    Tom Huber Registered User
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    New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Jim, Another possible scenerio for the matchup. The dial appears to be a more modern dial for the year SN of the watch, ie block letters. Is it possible that the original owner took the watch in after about 20 years use to be repaired and approved an update on the case and dial. This is known to have been done by railroaders.

    Tom
     
  9. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Congrats on a great find!

    Certainly does not look in any way familiar, I probably would have walked right by this one not recognizing the style. Just goes to show that one never knows what they will find when looking further.

    Will be interesting to see if any more turn up ...

    Fred
     
  10. terry hall

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    New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Thanks Don!!!
     
  11. terry hall

    terry hall Registered User
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    #11 terry hall, Apr 26, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2012
    New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Update...

    This is not the only example that has been seen.

    I had in my files images of another case from a fellow chapter 17 member. He sent the pics to me in the fall of 2002, and I was waiting to

    1. view the case in person
    2. see if any info came out before I could view the case in person
    3. get permission to use the case

    I contacted the owner to be sure I could post his pictures.

    Of course it is now evident the bow on his example has been replaced, and it contains a movement much earlier than the case.... a grade 990

    His case serial number is 806779 which is lower than jim's example
     
  12. RR Approved

    RR Approved Guest

    New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Terry,
    Thanks for helping me identify my watch case. I really wanted the watch for the Fergie dial, but thought the case was interesting. I'm glad to know that it is a No. 9. You were supicious of the bow two years ago - your intuition was correct.

    BTW, if anyone has one of these bows "just laying around", I have a "friend" who may be interested in purchasing it. ;-)
    David
     
  13. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    UPDATE

    I found a Gold colored Model 9 case at the National in Oklahoma City. This indicated that they were made in White and Gold colored. They were made by Fahy's for Hamilton in the late 20's or early 30's. The serial number of the case is 804707.
     
  14. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    #14 Jim Haney, Jul 7, 2004
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
    New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Back
     

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  15. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Jim:

    Congratulations on a great find!

    Don's January 1931 date (mentioned above) for the No. 9 cases being received is constant with the introduction of the No. 8 case with the 992E in September 1931, and with the No. 10 showing up in 1936.

    Kent
     
  16. terry hall

    terry hall Registered User
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    New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    WoW...... great find jim!!
     
  17. Fred Hansen

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    #17 Fred Hansen, Nov 30, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2012
    New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Another here, as found with movement serial number 1733183 and yellow gold-filled case serial number 804959 ...


    Pictures lost .Edit

    Fred
     
  18. crsides

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    #18 crsides, Nov 30, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2012
    New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Nice example Fred.

    Where did you find this one.

    I picked one up in late August on a live auction on Ebay, but it has some brass showing. case # 806136 - 992 # is 2530148. It came furnished with a Montgomery porcelain RWS dial and 992b hands.

    They are coming out of the woodwork.

    Charlie
     
  19. Fred Hansen

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    New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Hi Charlie -

    Picked it up recently at an auction not far from where I live. Do I remember yours correctly as coming out of an auction house in Indiana?

    It is interesting to see these turn up and where the serial number spread is at, and I wonder how long it will be before someone turns one up w/ box and label?

    Fred
     
  20. crsides

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    New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    I'll take that one when it turns up.
     
  21. Fred Hansen

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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    More Hamilton model 9 case data ...

    YGF case #805147 and grade 992 movement #2574067.

    Fred
     
  22. Robert Sweet

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    #22 Robert Sweet, Mar 11, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2012
    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Fred,
    Thanks for the new addition to the rare No. 9.

    Using Lowell Halligan's (Sales and Merchandising Mgr. late 1940's) "History of Hamilton Factory Cases" as the source of information, the following number of No. 9's were produced in 1932 and 1933.

    10K (Yellow) GF, 1932-----Qty--422
    10K (Yellow) GF, 1933-----Qty--654

    Total--1076

    14K (White) GF, 1932-----### Qty-- ###
    14K (White) GF, 1933-----Qty--317

    Total--502


    Grand Total--1578

    Robert
     
  23. Fred Hansen

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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    More data from another model 9 I looked at today ...

    YGF case #805541
    Grade 992 mvt #2576525

    Fred
     
  24. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    I was looking at this old thread and realized that most of the links to a picture are dead, so I am posting a picture to keep it up to date and current.
     

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  25. rromero

    rromero Registered User

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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Here's another model 9. YGF case #805779 and grade 992 movement #2574161.
     

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  26. luvsthetick

    luvsthetick Registered User

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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Here is mine. WGF model 9 case #806779 and 992 movement #2421761.
     

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  27. Robert Sweet

    Robert Sweet Registered User

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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Below is an art drawing of the Fahys No. 9 from the "Halligan Files".

    Robert
     

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  28. l3up

    l3up Registered User

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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Just picked up another Hamilton Model #9 case serial number: 806328 - 21J Serial Number 2575823 to add to the data base.
    Weldon
     

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  29. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    #29 Jim Haney, Jan 4, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Weldon,

    Thanks for the new information. I will never forget when you found your 1st one at the Cleveland National!

    This thread needs some work and I will try to clean it up later with a current list of numbers and movements.
     
  30. l3up

    l3up Registered User

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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Hey Jim,
    Yes I was very pumped about finding the first one at the Cleveland National. I have two more for the data base: Case 10K YGF 806183 992 -2574510, Case 14k WGF 806704 974 Special 17J - 2536535
     
  31. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    #31 Jim Haney, Jan 4, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2012
    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    804627 2575220- 992 YGF Jim Haney

    804707 empty YGF Jim Haney

    804959 1733183-992 YGF Fred's Sighting

    805147 2574067-992 YGF Fred's Sighting

    805541 2576525-992 YGF Fred's Sighting

    805779 2574161-992 YGF R. Romero

    805885 empty YGF Jim Haney

    805909 empty YGF Jim Haney

    806136 2530148-992 YGF Charlie Sides

    806183 2574510-992 YGF Weldon Hopkins

    806324 2538387-974 YGF Charlie Sides

    806328 2575823-992 YGF Weldon Hopkins

    806619 2538745-974A WGF Charlie Sides *

    806704 2536535-974S WGF Weldon Hopkins

    806779 990 move't WGF David

    806779 2421761-992 WGF luvsthetick

    806845 1115278-992 WGF Jim Haney

    807318 1615814-992 WGF Jim Haney



    * Factory Boxed Set
     
  32. crsides

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  33. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    #33 Jim Haney, Jan 9, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2012
    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Charie, Thanks, I added them




    804627 2575220- 992 YGF Jim Haney

    804707 empty YGF Jim Haney

    804959 1733183-992 YGF Fred's Sighting

    805147 2574067-992 YGF Fred's Sighting

    805541 2576525-992 YGF Fred's Sighting

    805779 2574161-992 YGF R. Romero

    805885 empty YGF Jim Haney

    805909 empty YGF Jim Haney

    806136 2530148-992 YGF Charlie Sides

    806183 2574510-992 YGF Weldon Hopkins

    806324 2538387-974 YGF Charlie Sides

    806328 2575823-992 YGF Weldon Hopkins

    806357 2576377-992 YGF Fred's Sighting

    806619 2538745-974A WGF Charlie Sides *

    806704 2536535-974S WGF Weldon Hopkins

    806779 990 move't WGF David

    806779 2421761-992 WGF luvsthetick

    806845 1115278-992 WGF Jim Haney

    807098 1619769-992 WGF Weldon Hopkins 8-1-12

    807318 1615814-992 WGF Jim Haney



    * Factory Boxed Set
     
  34. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    bumped, new data added
     
  35. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Jim, I have one of those, with a 992E. Movement S/N is 2607527 I'll post the case S/N when I get home.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  36. skippp66

    skippp66 Registered User
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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    I , too might have walked by this. In fact, maybe I did. Congrats and thanks for sharing. I was curious to see pics of the inside of the case back. Jim, you must have read my mind. Thanks for sharing. Don, you are an amazing researcher. Darn!!!! One more rare acorn to try to add to my squirrel's nest.
    Skip, that Hamilton Nut
     
  37. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Case Serial Number is 804888

    [​IMG]
     
  38. GeneJockey

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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Hey, should this case have a sleeve? I had this watch serviced some years back by a watchmaker I don't think was very good. When it came back, the winding is incredibly stiff and the stem is loose, i.e. the whole stem and crown slide up in the case by a couple mm.

    If so, anyone know where I can get the proper sleeve?

    THANKS!
     
  39. Phil7153

    Phil7153 Registered User

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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Its a lever set watch, so I would think there would be no need for a sleeve.
     
  40. terry hall

    terry hall Registered User
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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    can't remember on these, been a while since i held one

    it may not have a sleeve, but a shouldered stem ... the case should have some dustproofing features, like the crown fitting down over the tube with a close fit.

    sometimes stiff winding can be a misalignment of the movement in the case, tilting the stem. do you know if he replaced the stem? could be wrong one.
     
  41. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Gene,
    Terry is correct on the stem, it does have a large shoulder that acts as a dust proof barrier. There is no sleeve for these case, as is the normal for most of the short pendant Hamilton RR cases.

    The correct crown with this stem make it a straight stable winding tool for the movement.It will not have any slop or play sideways.

    Show a picture of your crown and bow area and I can tell you if everything looks correct.
     
  42. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Here are two views of the crown, showing how loose it is. It is tightened all the way down on the stem, but still has a couple mm of slop.

    [​IMG]

    Here's the crown, stem, and the bow area of the case.

    [​IMG]

    The shoulder has been hand-filed at the top - not sure why. And if you look at the square portion of the stem you can see it's starting to round at the corners. If this ever was the correct stem, it's been so butchered that it no longer fits.
     
  43. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Gene,
    The stem looks bad on the winding end but I don't how bad. The notch in the bow supports looks normal , they are made that way. The base that the crown sits on looks like it was filed down and that could be the problem.
    Send me a PM about it, I have those stems.
     
  44. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    It's REAL bad, Jim. The corners are increasingly rounded off. I believe the winding issues are both the case problem we're discussing and perhaps a mainspring issue.
     
  45. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    I am adding to this 12 year old thread.

    I bought a Model 9 Boxed set from my friend Charlie Sides.

    It is the only known example of a Factory Boxed set with a (Early) Model 9 case from Fahy's.

    DSCN5353.JPG

    DSCN5354.JPG

    DSCN5355.JPG

    DSCN5356.JPG

    DSCN5357.JPG
    DSCN5358.JPG
     
  46. Tref

    Tref Registered User
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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    Very nice to see old things come to the light of day and become "new" knowledge. Thanks Charlie and Jim!
     
  47. crsides

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    Re: New Hamilton 16s RR Case Discovered !

    You are both welcome. I found this one in Hillsville Va Labor day Flea market in 2010.

    Charlie
     
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