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New guy with new watch

musicguy

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Wow, what a beauty first watch!

Rob
 
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musicguy

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Welcome!


Rob
 
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Kent

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Hi Patrick:

Please add my welcome to Greg's & Rob's.

To repeat what they posted, you've a great watch!

Would you please post a picture of the case markings and confirrn that it's pendant-set?

Thanks,
Kent
 
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MrRoundel

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It seems to me that Keystone Howard made significantly more open-face movement than hunters. I certainly know this is the case with the 12s watches. And I don't recall seeing a Series 0 HC. While I'm not sure that they are "rare"-rare, I certainly think they rise to being rather "scarce". It looks in great shape as well. Nice score! I hope you enjoy it for many years. Cheers.
 
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Tom McIntyre

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This is a really nice example of the top of their line. Jerry Treiman wrote an article for the Bulletin which covers this history very well.

You might also enjoy this presentation I put together several years ago The Bridges of Middlesex County
 

Jerry Treiman

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Just received my first watch and I'm so happy with it! E Howard (Keystone) Series 0, 16s, 23j.
These really are beautifully made and finished watches. We recently talked a little about "bridge model" watches and noted that the peak of this style are made with "true" (i.e. fully separate) center bridges, like your Howard.

Jerry Treiman wrote an article for the Bulletin which covers this history very well.
Actually, I just wrote a bit of pre-history to your Keystone-Howard, discussing the brief period after the original E.Howard & Co. stopped making watches and contracted with Waltham to make their movements, into the period when Keystone was preparing to produce their own E. Howard Watch Co. watches, including these lovely bridge models. https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/waltham-howard-research.126865/
 

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Kent

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It seems to me that Keystone Howard made significantly more open-face movement than hunters. I certainly know this is the case with the 12s watches. And I don't recall seeing a Series 0 HC. While I'm not sure that they are "rare"-rare, I certainly think they rise to being rather "scarce". It looks in great shape as well. Nice score! I hope you enjoy it for many years. Cheers.
Judging by the estimated production of hunting-case, Series 0 watches shown in the E. Howard Watch Co., just over 2,800 HC movements were built (vs. 12,500 OF).

Page 101 of Complete Price Guide to Watches, No 33, R. Gilbert, T. Engle and C. Shugart, Tinderbox Press, Mount Pleasant, SC, 2013 (the most popular watch price guide on the market at the time, but now no longer in print) lists the below ratings of quantities. Although the assignment of 'Stars' elsewhere in the book may be open to debate (or in some instances, is demonstrably incorrect), the definitions used are as good as any in establishing the meanings of terms such as rare, scarce, etc.

Star Ratings

No. of StarsTermQuantity


*****Rare1-25
****Scarce100
***Very Few350
**Sparse1,000
*Uncommon2,500

Thus, the HC Series 0 isn't even uncommon, much less scarce.

As for HC watches in general, the E. Howard Watch Co. was formed at a time when HC watches were becoming much less popular overall. So naturally the bulk of their production was OF.
 
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SanDogDewey

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Hi Patrick:

Please add my welcome to Greg's & Rob's.

To repeat what they posted, you've a great watch!

Would you please post a picture of the case markings and confirrn that it's pendant-set?

Thanks,
Kent
It is pendant-set. The watch is keeping excellent time. Is it correct that these will run approximately 12 hours on a wind?
CB54E4DE-935E-47E4-A688-45D865440132.jpeg
5F079C8C-D6DE-4AB2-AFB9-E2ECAB929E25.jpeg
5372B23A-A608-46E0-B49F-1B4EB2C82A0D.jpeg
3D61D314-7FB4-40EB-9F67-13F73CD7262D.jpeg
 

gmorse

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Hi SanDogDewey,
Is it correct that these will run approximately 12 hours on a wind?
No, it should run at least 30 hours from fully wound, possibly more. Is the crown returning to the winding position fully after you set the hands?

I'm not sure, (not really my field), but didn't some Howards have stop-work on the barrel? That could cause this if it hasn't been set up correctly.

Regards,

Graham
 

Kent

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Patrick:

Thanks for the case pictures.

Your watch may need to be serviced; that would cause it to stop after only 12 hours. Unless you know that it has been properly cleaned and oiled within the last few years, you should have the watch serviced before running it very much. It may be helpful for you to read the Encyclopedia article on Watch Service and its related links, especially the one to the message board thread on the subject. The Encyclopedia article on Choosing a Pocket Watch Repair Person may be useful as well.

Please feel free to ask about anything that isn't clear to you.

Good luck,
 

MrRoundel

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Judging by the estimated production of hunting-case, Series 0 watches shown in the E. Howard Watch Co., just over 2,800 HC movements were built (vs. 12,500 OF).






Thus, the HC Series 0 isn't even uncommon, much less scarce.
Thanks for posting the numbers on the Series 0, Kent. I understand that the watch may not be "uncommon" or "scarce", as per Shugart/Engles and Gilbert. Perhaps they need another star rating for "relatively uncommon". ;-)

I had mentioned that my scarcity feeling was based on how it seemed to me (Personal observations implied, methinks.) rather than consulting factory records, etc. So I feel compelled to add that a look through the posted images of Series 0's on pocketwatchdatabase.com (As a sanity check.), I see a ratio of 2 HC configurations against 27 OF, FWIW. The factory numbers you, Kent , are showing, amount to ~82% of total production. So ~7 out of 8 made were OF. The statistics from the observation of the 29 examples of Series 0's on the database, end up closer to being 93% OF, or better than 9 of 10. If the actual production records matched the observations on PWDb images, which would be highly unlikely, there would only be 875 HC movements to 11,625 OF, making it at least Shugart "sparce". Granted, there are many other variables related to who posts what and where, but it sort of bears out my personal observations, i.e., I'm not as crazy as I look. :cuckoo:
I'm not claiming that the factory numbers aren't correct, only that it seems, via personal experience, that there is a larger differential between the HC and OF than is indicated. Perhaps people with HC movements don't sell them as often, or are less likely to post images of them. We'll never know.
I'm OK if anyone wants to point out math errors, etc. I never took a statistics class, so I just derived numbers from basic math.
Out of morbid curiosity, what do you, Kent , show on production number for the 12s HC/OF Keystone Howards. Thanks again. Cheers.
 
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MrRoundel

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As for the stopworks question, I don't believe that these models used them. At least I don't recall seeing them on the one or two I've had apart, and don't see any parts listed in the reprint materials catalog I have. There are some models of 12s movements that have the stopworks, and of course early Howards, but I don't think they're on the vast majority of Keystone Howards.
 

Kent

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Thanks for posting the numbers on the Series 0, Kent. I understand that the watch may not be "uncommon" or "scarce", as per Shugart/Engles and Gilbert. Perhaps they need another star rating for "relatively uncommon". ;-)

I had mentioned that my scarcity feeling was based on how it seemed to me (Personal observations implied, methinks.) rather than consulting factory records, etc. So I feel compelled to add that a look through the posted images of Series 0's on pocketwatchdatabase.com (As a sanity check.), I see a ratio of 2 HC configurations against 27 OF, FWIW. The factory numbers you, Kent , are showing, amount to ~82% of total production. So ~7 out of 8 made were OF. The statistics from the observation of the 29 examples of Series 0's on the database, end up closer to being 93% OF, or better than 9 of 10. If the actual production records matched the observations on PWDb images, which would be highly unlikely, there would only be 875 HC movements to 11,625 OF, making it at least Shugart "sparce". Granted, there are many other variables related to who posts what and where, but it sort of bears out my personal observations, i.e., I'm not as crazy as I look. :cuckoo:
I'm not claiming that the factory numbers aren't correct, only that it seems, via personal experience, that there is a larger differential between the HC and OF than is indicated. Perhaps people with HC movements don't sell them as often, or are less likely to post images of them. We'll never know.
I'm OK if anyone wants to point out math errors, etc. I never took a statistics class, so I just derived numbers from basic math.
Out of morbid curiosity, what do you, Kent , show on production number for the 12s HC/OF Keystone Howards. Thanks again. Cheers.
MrRoundel:

I have no desire to get into a dispute with you over Howard's relative production of Series 0 Hunting (HC) vs. Open-Face movements. I apologize if I sounded that way.

My major point was the use of the word 'scarce' (and in other threads; the word 'rare' by other posters). I freely admit to being overly-sensitive to this. It comes from decades of seeing (or hearing) those words applied to watches that were made by the thousands; mostly by sellers at marts or on the internet.

As for Howard's production of Series 0 Hunting (HC) vs. Open-Face movements - there are no factory records of which I'm aware. Those who have read the E. Howard Watch Co. Encyclopedia article will have noticed heavy use of the word 'Estimated' in the discussions of 'runs' and 'production'. The basis for the estimates is explained in the Table Notes near the bottom of the article:

The runs listed in tables were generated from the movements listed in the data base created and maintained by Ed Ueberall and Kent Singer. The data was collected from internet listings, dealer mail-order lists, reports and personal observations, mostly at NAWCC marts.
Ed and I have spent over 35 years collecting data on roughly 65,000 surviving watches, about 6,000 being those made by Keystone Howard.

This has been a long-winded way of saying the numbers I posted were real, observed, surviving watches.

Regarding 12-stze Keystone Howard.watches, we have about 300 listed in our data base (which consists of mostly railroad watches). There is a smattering of 12-stze HC watches in the lower serial numbers.

Best regards,
 
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MrRoundel

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No worries, Kent. I knew you offered what you did for informational purposes. It's all more than valid. Thanks for your research. It provides much more valuable info than most of the seat-of-the-pants "studies" that I do. Cheers.
 

Clint Geller

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Dr. Jon

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One of the features I especially like on the Series O and Series 5 is the escape wheel. They usually have a raised tooth tips or as we used to call it a Recessed hub escape wheel (RHEW) This also show up on some Waltham American grade watches and most high end Swiss watches.

These are true bridge watches.
 

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Hi Patrick,

Stunningly beautiful pocket watch. Service it up and it will serve you well. Very nice first pocket watch.

Stephen
 

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