New Era pocket watch...how does movement come out of case?

[Codozalator]

Hey there Everyone.

I got hold of an old pocket watch with no name on the dial. It only has a drawing of a train on the dial and an embossed train on the back cover.

It reads "NEWERA" on the bridge. According to the pocket watch database, this was made by the Lancaster Watch Co. but then I saw a thread on this forum that says it was made by the New York Standard Watch Co.

Immediately, I knew it was not an actual railroad watch. It has no jewels and the movement is a rather inexpensive Westcloxian-type movement.

It is one of those where you have to pull out the crown, and then screw off the back.

My issue is, how in the world does the movement come out of the case?. I removed the two case screws, and it stays put.

There is no screw on the crown neck or anywhere that releases the stem. Oftentimes, the bezel then screws off and the movement drops out. But The bezel does not appear to screw off on this one. If it does, it is on dang tight. There is a seam, but it is barely perceptible.

There must be a trick?. The stem looks to be holding it, but I see of no way of removing the stem. I don't want to just yank on it and risk breaking it. Maybe it unscrews somehow?. I thought maybe the movement turned, but to no avail. I tried all sorts of things but it remains in the case.

Does anyone know the secret to removing the movement from one of these puzzle watches?. Maybe there's a riddle one must solve or perhaps a secret code?.

I apologize for the blurry photos. I have nothing else to take pictures with but this crappy Nikon Coolpix that is ancient. I do not have a cellphone because they do not work where I live. Apparently, because the photo quality is so good, that is how everyone takes pictures these days. I actually have to get a cellphone just for the camera...as soon as funds allow.

 

[roughbarked]

Don't blame the camera. The Nikon Coolpix can do better than that.
Most times if the movement doesn't look like coming out the back, it comes out through the front.

 

[musicguy]

My issue is, how in the world does the movement come out of the case?. I removed the two case screws, and it stays put.

Moving question to watch repair.


Rob

 

[gmorse]

Hi Codozalator,

I have nothing else to take pictures with but this crappy Nikon Coolpix that is ancient. I do not have a cellphone because they do not work where I live. Apparently, because the photo quality is so good, that is how everyone takes pictures these days. I actually have to get a cellphone just for the camera...as soon as funds allow.

A smart phone isn't necessary just to take pictures. It may be cheaper, (no contract!), to buy a fairly basic video camera with a decent macro zoom lens. The majority of pictures I post are taken with a Sony 'Handycam' CX405 in still mode, and with some care over lighting, they're perfectly adequate. It doesn't have bluetooth wireless connectivity but it does have a Zeiss Vario-Tessar lens, which is more important and gives excellent results.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Codozalator]

Hi Codozalator,


A smart phone isn't necessary just to take pictures. It may be cheaper, (no contract!), to buy a fairly basic video camera with a decent macro zoom lens. The majority of pictures I post are taken with a Sony 'Handycam' CX405 in still mode, and with some care over lighting, they're perfectly adequate. It doesn't have bluetooth wireless connectivity but it does have a Zeiss Vario-Tessar lens, which is more important and gives excellent results.

Regards,

Graham

Thanks. That's what I need. Something that'll take clear photos up close and to post items on eBay. I will check out what you mentioned.

 

[Codozalator]

Would this camera be a good one to give clear close-up photos of watches and other small items that demands detail?. Amazon.com: Sony HDR-CX405 HD Handycam (HDRCX405/B) + 64GB Memory Card + Bag + NP-BX1 Battery + Card Reader + HDMI Cable + Charger + Flex Tripod + Memory Wallet + Cleaning Kit : Electronics
I see these photos of watches and other small detailed items on eBay, and they're taken with people's phones!. Such incredible picture quality from phone cameras amazes me for some reason.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Codozalator,

Would this camera be a good one to give clear close-up photos of watches and other small items that demands detail?

That's effectively the one I have. Many phones now have higher resolution cameras, (~20meg), but if you don't need all the other features, it's an expensive camera. I find it useful because of the macro capability in both video and still modes. Lighting can make a huge difference as well.



Regards,

Graham

 

[roughbarked]

In photography, lighting is everything.

 

[Codozalator]

Thanks much. I will try that camera then. And it doesn't cost an arm and a leg. if it takes photos like the one you have there, then that'll certainly do.

Yes, the lighting thing is something I have to get better at.

 

[penjunky]

how in the world does the movement come out of the case?

Hi Codozalator,

Between the photo and my eyes, a little hard too see. Does it appear to be a ring inside the back, like a dust ring, holding the movement, can't really tell if it's a ring or a ring if dirt. Can you see a tiny hinge right below the crown after you took the back off? If the front bezel don't come off then the movement might be sitting in a ring, if so you will have to pull the crown up and pry the ring out from the bottom real easy, and the movement will come out with it, don't want no damage. If you cannot see a hinge or a ring then don't do it.

I have one that sits in a ring and it comes out the front cause the case and back are one piece. One of these days I'll have to get on here and find out the name of it.

Roger

 

[penjunky]

and with some care over lighting

Hey Graham

Saw you description on pictures on another thread but couldn't find it again. How do you fix your lighting and what do you use. If I'm not outside in the shade all I get is reflections, those bright spots.

Roger

 

[roughbarked]

Diffused light photography | Adobe

In this diffused light photography guide, learn how to shed soft, flattering light on your subjects, anywhere from in the studio to the great outdoors.

www.adobe.com

 

[gmorse]

Hi Roger,

The Adobe link posted by roughbarked describes it very well.

I use a desk lamp with a 15 watt LED bulb, (equivalent to about a 75-100 watt tungsten lamp), more or less overhead, but I stand up a sheet of white paper behind the object and the reflected light from that is softer without too many hard shadows. If I need more diffusion, I cover the front of the shade with a piece of very thin tissue paper. I try to crop in the camera if possible, but I usually have to crop some more to get a tight image, and I also use some software to improve brightness and contrast where necessary. The old Google Picasa program is usually good enough for most needs, (it's discontinued but still available if you search), but if I need to do more with an image, the free Gimp package, (the Graphic Image Manipulation Program, a earlier version of Photoshop), does the job. There are stacks of free image processing tools available but I find these two cover my needs. You can do simple cropping and adding text in Microsoft Paint if that's all you need.

Viewing images on the larger screen of a PC or laptop allows you to see whether they're in focus and the object of interest is properly framed.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Jim Haney]

Your movement already has the case screws out,so just unscrew the front bezel and pull the stem and the movement will fall out the front..

I am amused that this thread got so sidetracked

 

[penjunky]

But The bezel does not appear to screw off on this one. If it does, it is on dang tight. There is a seam, but it is barely perceptible.

Codozalator
This is the case I was trying to describe, it's a swing out. Yours don't seem to be like that so I agree with roughbarked and Jim Haney that it comes out from the front, but, just in case. And yup, I need to work on my photos.

The Adobe link posted by roughbarked describes it very well

Thanks Roughbarked and Graham I'll certainly check into it. Hopefully I can get back to my watches before long.

I am amused that this thread got so sidetracked

Hey Jim, I got a bit tickled when I read your 'sidetracked' but ones gotta get info where one can.

All you guys have a good one

Roger

 

[roughbarked]

Your movement already has the case screws out,so just unscrew the front bezel and pull the stem and the movement will fall out the front..

I am amused that this thread got so sidetracked

Probably my fault. I could have mentioned the camera second and the advice first?

New Era pocket watch...how does movement come out of case?

Hey there Everyone. I got hold of an old pocket watch with no name on the dial. It only has a drawing of a train on the dial and an embossed train on the back cover. It reads "NEWERA" on the bridge. According to the pocket watch database, this was made by the Lancaster Watch Co. but then I...

mb.nawcc.org

 

[Codozalator]

Wow...I checked out the thread and saw all the replies. Thanks all.

There is no hinge for a swing out as in the photo above. There is also no ring it sets in. This watch appears to have a screw off bezel, but the seam is so faint and it is on so tight, I can not get it unscrewed. But, the back unscrewed and I found the mainspring was broken. I installed a new one into the barrel already, so I hope I can get her to turn over. Balance wheel seems happy. There are no jewels to speak of. It is one of those novelty "railroad" watches with a train embossed on the back cover, albeit a rather old one with a heavy case. Looking up the serial number on the pocket watch database, it said Lancaster Watch Co., but a thread on this site said it was really the New York Standard Watch Co, so I ordered a mainspring for the latter, and it fit...and was only $10. Thanks. Otherwise, I would have been looking for the wrong company.

Btw, I think I am going to purchase the camera gmorse mentioned. The one I have is really old and I can not get it to focus on close-up shots.

Thanks everyone. As usual, you all were mighty helpful.

 

[Jim Haney]

Do a search on How to open a Pocket watch case and you will see many suggestions, the most common a rubber ring or glue a stick,rod across and that will give you something to put real pressure on the cover to loosen it.

How did you replace the Mainspring with the movement in the case. The plates would have to come apart?

 

[Codozalator]

Actually, the barrel comes out without taking the dial side off. The arbor side that usually attaches to the ratchet wheel, slides down into a hole into a mechanism that can be accessed from the dial side, then the other side comes up through the train bridge. it is kind of upside down from most other mainspring set ups I've seen. Anyway, I did indeed put a new mainspring in and it winds fine now. The other one was crumbled into bits. The problem is the center wheel is kind of rusty, dirty, and does not turn nicely as it should. The palette fork and balance seem like they want to run, but the wheel trains are rather rough to turn. If I could get the front off, I could clean it, oil it, and likely get it going. Anyway, please see attached video. I managed to get a camera that takes good photos and video. See video here: Old pseudo-railroad toy pocket watch - YouTube

Oh, and I apologize for my stupid accent. I can't help it.

 

[roughbarked]

A crumbling mainspring may indicate that water has been in the watch. Rust on the centre wheel adds credibility to the hypothesis.

The bezel does screw off and there are a few ways you can try to screw it off. I've simply used the rubber gloves that one uses to wash dishes, those of you who don't have a dish washer. An application of penetrating oil around the seam that you can see may also help. Some people swear by rubber balls or hot gluing a lever to the part to be screwed off. Though I'd be careful with heat on the glass, if it is glass that is.
Sitting the watch face down of a face coth that has been soaked in piping hot water for a few minutes may also help but could simply make the glass fall out.

 

[Codozalator]

Yep....the water crossed my mind too. Thanks for the tips. That makes sense. I have one of those thingies with a rubber end made for taking casebacks off, and it didn't work, so I am going to try the penetrating oil you mentioned. Thanks a lot. Will let you know if I make headway.

 

[penjunky]

If I could get the front off

If no luck with roughbarked suggestion, maybe one of those suctions cups if you can find one that small. I had a base metal case and couldn't budge the bezel so I got a stick on felt strip, stuck it to a set of channel lock pliers and finally it moved enough to where I could get it off. But, you might not want to try that cause if it slips it could scratch the bezel. And I've had good luck with seafoam deep creep but never let any get on the dial.

The accent sounds OK to me

Good luck...Roger

 

[Codozalator]

Well....I GOT IT!. It opened using a PB Blaster soak and the 8-ball. Thanks much for all the advice.

I disassembled and cleaned the parts. It still doesn't want to run, though nothing appears broken. It tried a few times. I got about half a dozen tics from the pallet fork before it stopped.

I think the issue may be around the center wheel-cannon pinion area.

I will be back and post a video or two showing what I mean. Your input/advice is always appreciated. This is no fine movement by any means. it has one jewel. But it would be fun to get it running all the same.

 

[Codozalator]

Well Fellas, here is a video showing the watch. See what ya' think. Sorry if I got out of frame a few times, but it's fairly clear.

If you want to see a video with the pallet fork and balance in, I can do that if need be.

Railroad-type novelty watch - YouTube

 

[gmorse]

Hi codozalator,

Have a very close look under good magnification at all the wheel teeth and pinion leaves in the train; there may be some damaged teeth or just something stuck in between them.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Skutt50]

The canon pinion seems way too lose but can usually be tightened using a staking set. I put a broach or a reamer in the hole before closing it. That way you can make sure you don't over do it.

The gear train seems to have some additional problems. Possibly a bent tooth on one wheel or some debree in a pinion. You will need to take it apart again and inspect each tooth with a magnifier.
You can mark the wheels with a marker and give them a turn. When the gear train jams and one mark is at the same position as last time it jammed, that is the wheel in which you search for the problem.
If you find no damaged teeth you can look for a wobbling wheel.

Let's stop here and see what you find.

 

[roughbarked]

Thing is, you have had it apart to replace the mainspring. Yet you still haven't examined each wheel in turn before putting it all back. A common problem may well be that the barrel teeth have bits of your fingers stuck in them, some rodico maybe, whatever. You should have the canon pinion off during testing of the wheel train freedom of movement. So that you can isolate the problem as not being in the dial train. Though if it is as loose as it looks then it may not be a problem with the dial train. A broken mainspring may easily have damaged barrel teeth and or the centre wheel pinion teeth or indeed have bent the centre wheel shaft. All of which could easily display the symptoms your watch is showing.

 

[Codozalator]

Thanks a lot. I did look at the wheels, but didn't see damage apparent. It may be subtle so I will inspect more closely. I will do as you all suggest and let you know what I find. Thanks

 

[gmorse]

Hi Codozalator,

It may be subtle so I will inspect more closely.

You need at least x10 and preferably x20 to see what's really going on with teeth, leaves and pivots.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Codozalator]

I inspected the wheels and saw nothing damaged. But....I GOT IT!...SHE'S RUNNIN'.

I'm going to keep an eye on it and see how it does. May stop.

Thanks for the help.

 

[roughbarked]

If it is now runnning freely, you may have accidentally caused a bit of grit to fall out of its position.

I will ask though, did you remove the canon pinion with this last test? You were going to have to remove it to tighten it a bit.

 

[Skutt50]

But....I GOT IT!...SHE'S RUNNIN'.

I keep my fingers crossed.....

Unfortuntely it takes some time before one can tell. You may have moved the jamming parts away from the critical position and when they meet again, the movement may come to a new halt.

Did you test the gear train without the pallet fork installed?

 

[Codozalator]

Yes, I did. I haven't messed with it since I spoke to you all last. It ran awhile and, as you said, stopped again. But it was an encouraging start.

No, Roughbarked, I did not remove the cannon pinion last time. As you said, I think I will give a shot at tightening it

Admittedly, I have not done that before, so this may be a good candidate. I do have a staking set though. But I do not have one of those cannon pinion tightener hickeys. Do I need one of those or can I do it with the staking tool?.

The thing is the movement is one of those no-jewel cheap movements they placed in the dollar watches back in the day.

The parts are very sloppy when trying to work on it. I must have hit a sweet spot when I got it to running for a bit.

Anyway, the case is what's nice on this watch. The porcelain dial. The case has a notch for the railroad watch setting lever, but of course there is none present. I would like to just find a nice movement to put in it, but it measures to size 20 and harder to find on eBay. Everything is 16 or 18.

From what I read, railroad watches were generally too expensive for the average person, so did these companies buy leftover cases, slap cheap movements in them, and then sell them as "railroad" watches?. That's what it looks like to me. The early 19th c. version of a cheap knock-off.
Kind of like the "Longine" watches they sold.
Just asking.

 

[Skutt50]

It ran awhile and, as you said, stopped again.

That is good in a way. You can now mark the wheels and check next time it stops if one wheel is at the same position. Don't give up. This is good learning!

Do I need one of those or can I do it with the staking tool?.

A staking tool will do fine but you need something to hold the canon pinion and to limit the closure of the hole. I use a broach that I put in the hole (from the bottom) and push the canon pinion until it stops....
A flat support in the staking set is used to rest the tube shaped part of the canon pinion against and then I turn the pinion until I see the old indent where it was closed before. The punch I use is shaped flat like a screwdriver but with a steep edge.

I place the edge on the "old" indent and then give it a light tap. Usually the back of a pair of tweezers is enough.....
Remove the broach and test. If needed, repeat a few times with slightly harder taps. Don't over do it. It is better to have it slightly loose than too stiff.......

The case has a notch for the railroad watch setting lever, but of course there is none present.

It is not uncommon to see this. Cases and movements were often matched by the watchmaker/seller. The notch can even be made from factory but never used. To spot a recasing, you could try to see if there are any markings from old screws in other positions than those from the current screws.
The Nunberger egg shaped case is something I have not come across before in this type of movement. Are there any markings, stamps or similar in the case. Pictures perhaps.......

 

[Codozalator]

That is good in a way. You can now mark the wheels and check next time it stops if one wheel is at the same position. Don't give up. This is good learning!



A staking tool will do fine but you need something to hold the canon pinion and to limit the closure of the hole. I use a broach that I put in the hole (from the bottom) and push the canon pinion until it stops....
A flat support in the staking set is used to rest the tube shaped part of the canon pinion against and then I turn the pinion until I see the old indent where it was closed before. The punch I use is shaped flat like a screwdriver but with a steep edge.

I place the edge on the "old" indent and then give it a light tap. Usually the back of a pair of tweezers is enough.....
Remove the broach and test. If needed, repeat a few times with slightly harder taps. Don't over do it. It is better to have it slightly loose than too stiff.......


It is not uncommon to see this. Cases and movements were often matched by the watchmaker/seller. The notch can even be made from factory but never used. To spot a recasing, you could try to see if there are any markings from old screws in other positions than those from the current screws.
The Nunberger egg shaped case is something I have not come across before in this type of movement. Are there any markings, stamps or similar in the case. Pictures perhaps.......

Thanks much for all of the advice and support. Sorry I have not replied sooner. Too many other irons in the fire. I will check for other markings, but I did not notice any. I have a bunch of punches that came with the staking tool, so I hope there is one you suggest.
I also have a 1950s Lord Elgin with a AS1673 movement that has a noisy rotor; I was thinking about trying to fix it as well. Looks like a similar problem, but it's the "oscillating weight axle" that has too much play. I can hear the rotor touching metal when it turns. So, I have my hands full with "learning experiences" I hope not to screw up. Thanks much fellas, and wish me luck. As Arnold said in Terminator, "I'll be bock".

 

[Skutt50]

I will check for other markings, but I did not notice any.

There should not be any untill you put them there. The idea is to use e.g. a marker pen or tipex to mark each wheel in the position it stopped. Then start the movement and look for where the marks are next time it stops. One or two wheels should be in the same position as when you marked them. That is where you most likely will find a solution to the problem. As an example: A bent tooth will stop the movement each time it interacts with the next/former wheel.

Looks like a similar problem, but it's the "oscillating weight axle" that has too much play.

Your current problem is probably not a worn bearing. More likely debree in the wrong place, a bent tooth on a wheel or a wheel that is not running flat. (Bent wheel or bent pivot.)

 

[roughbarked]

Thanks much for all of the advice and support. Sorry I have not replied sooner. Too many other irons in the fire. I will check for other markings, but I did not notice any. I have a bunch of punches that came with the staking tool, so I hope there is one you suggest.
I also have a 1950s Lord Elgin with a AS1673 movement that has a noisy rotor; I was thinking about trying to fix it as well. Looks like a similar problem, but it's the "oscillating weight axle" that has too much play. I can hear the rotor touching metal when it turns. So, I have my hands full with "learning experiences" I hope not to screw up. Thanks much fellas, and wish me luck. As Arnold said in Terminator, "I'll be bock".

The AS 1673 rotor is wobbling because the weight post/axle is either broken or the screws that hold it in place are loose.

 

[Codozalator]

I just realized I had not thanked everyone for help and have not updated this thread and it's resolution.

I got the New Era all fixed up and running. It looks good and my cousin (whose watch it was) is pleased with it.

I lucked into a new movement identical to the one that was in it only in fine working order. So, it may have been cheating, but it was the best way to go.

Regardless, all of your tutelage helps with other projects that may come along, and I always appreciate it.