New clock had a rough arrival, but is OK!

[Chris Maher]

My new miniature carriage clock arrived today. The courier felt the best place to leave it was on the brick fence outside my property (see the photo they sent me documenting safe delivery. When I came out it had either fallen off the fence onto the path or some neighbour had opened my gate and paced it on the path. Thankfully it was tough enough to survive all of this; and I live in an honest neighbourhood.

It is a gorge cased miniature which is a little unusual. It came with a travelling case and matching numbered key. It looks very similar to a Margaine miniature corniche that I have, but there is no Margaine trademark on the new clock. I am wondering if there is such a thing as an unsigned Margaine? Perhaps Thomas Wotruba knows the answer?

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Fancy taking a pic like that where it is precariously balanced rather than safely placed on the wall. Though why they put it there at all is beyond me. I'm glad it survived.

 

[Les harland]

I think you should complain to the delivery company
It looks as if a gust of wind could have blown the parcel off of the wall

 

[Chris Maher]

I was thinking of complaining but the clock runs perfectly; so I do not want to tempt fate. I wound and set it on Sunday and it is still reading perfect time on Thursday.

 

[Leigh Extence]

Chris,

Tom is the best person on Margaine, but I have been researching the hand setting arrows on Margaine clocks for a while now and have come across quite a few that I would say were Margaine movements (or from the same workshops as Margaine carriage clocks) that don't have a Margaine trademark on the backplate or the name Margaine within the plates themselves. Your arrow is typical of the style I am talking about! I have seen it on both signed and unsigned Margaine backplates. Image of one to come in a second...

Leigh

 

[Leigh Extence]

Margaine miniature 4055 with the same hand setting arrow as yours along with the AM Beehive Margaine trademark.
An almost identical clock to the other Corniche example you show.

Some thoughts from my notes:

Serial numbers 118 - 794 have this hand setting arrow along with the earlier Margaine style wording for Hands in script font and the distinctive Margaine regulation index to the top of the backplate, but no Margaine markings.

Serial numbers 2571 - 4746 have this arrow, but now with the Beehive trademark, but still with the Margaine regulation index and script font for Hands.

5428 and beyond has the three tailed hand setting arrow as usually associated with Margaine along with the Beehive trademark and now with the more usual block script for the wording Hands and still the Margaine style regulation index.

17542 has a different hand setting arrow design, but still with the Margaine regulation index, Beehive trademark and block font for the word Hands.



I have also seen this arrow on a number of carriage clocks with signed Lucien Simmonet panels, including one I have at present, which I assume come from the same workshop.

Leigh

 

[Chris Maher]

Margaine miniature 4055 with the same hand setting arrow as yours along with the AM Beehive Margaine trademark.
An almost identical clock to the other Corniche example you show.

Some thoughts from my notes:

Serial numbers 118 - 794 have this hand setting arrow along with the earlier Margaine style wording for Hands in script font and the distinctive Margaine regulation index to the top of the backplate, but no Margaine markings.

Serial numbers 2571 - 4746 have this arrow, but now with the Beehive trademark, but still with the Margaine regulation index and script font for Hands.

5428 and beyond has the three tailed hand setting arrow as usually associated with Margaine along with the Beehive trademark and now with the more usual block script for the wording Hands and still the Margaine style regulation index.

17542 has a different hand setting arrow design, but still with the Margaine regulation index, Beehive trademark and block font for the word Hands.



I have also seen this arrow on a number of carriage clocks with signed Lucien Simmonet panels, including one I have at present, which I assume come from the same workshop.

Leigh

View attachment 682571 View attachment 682572

Thanks for the reply Leigh; very helpful.

I went back to pictures of Margaine miniature backplates and they did not seem to fit your description on the font. I went downstairs to my two full size Margaines and they did. It seems that perhaps there is a different pattern for miniature Margaine backplates.

On the 21 miniatures I have backplate pictures for, the font for Aiguilles or Hands is always script from as low as #3067 up to #19450; it never switches to block font. On my full size ones (#6184 & #16346) it is block capitals for HANDS and AIGUILLES. Interestingly I noticed for the first time that #6184 has no Margaine regulation index so I am wondering if someone forgot to stamp it when it was made. It has the Margaine beehive so it must be by Margaine.

There is a lot of mysteries to unravel in carriage clocks. Thanks for your help

Chris

 

[Leigh Extence]

Chris,

Exactly, the more I research the various makers, the more it makes the head spin.

At times, miniature carriage clocks do seem to have a differing rule. I have a selection that are 100 percent Drocourt but have a different makers stamp on the backplate. That's a mystery I may've cracked now.

I never thought that ten years after starting research on Jacot and then Drocourt I'd still be unearthing stuff that needs collaborating and looking into, although I'm pretty sure I've covered most of it now.
I was going to do the same research with Margaine, but thankfully I found that Tom was on the case which was a blessing in disguise.
I'm going to spend a bit of time on the Margaine 'arrows' and font for 'Hands' this week and see if I can unravel that I bit more!

Leigh

 

[Christopher Lloyd Owen]

Forgive my tuppence worth, Chris and Leigh ... could the difference between stamping and engraving have a bearing on this? All the normal Margaines I've seen are stamped (sometimes not even very well or quite horizontally either), in contradistinction to those of Messrs Jacot and Drocourt, which are engraved. Better quality miniatures are engraved too, and this suggests to me that the blancs roulants makers might have done the engraving? (And are therefore from a different supplier?)
I have a miniature at the moment with well engraved "Hands" and stamped for Richard et Cie, whereas the normal R & Cos I've seen have "Hands" stamped.

 

[zedric]

Here is another Margaine miniature, for comparison, no 15402...

 

[Chris Maher]

Forgive my tuppence worth, Chris and Leigh ... could the difference between stamping and engraving have a bearing on this? All the normal Margaines I've seen are stamped (sometimes not even very well or quite horizontally either), in contradistinction to those of Messrs Jacot and Drocourt, which are engraved. Better quality miniatures are engraved too, and this suggests to me that the blancs roulants makers might have done the engraving? (And are therefore from a different supplier?)
I have a miniature at the moment with well engraved "Hands" and stamped for Richard et Cie, whereas the normal R & Cos I've seen have "Hands" stamped.

Chris I am new to all of this; but if you are suggesting that the Margaine miniatures and full size blancs came from different suppliers it could explain the differences.

My attempt to find some order in this chaos is to collate serial numbers and photos for every miniature carriage clock I see online (my interest is miniatures). I think I need a few more years to see any definite patterns. The number and variety of miniature carriage clocks is extraordinary.

 

[Chris Maher]

Here is another Margaine miniature, for comparison, no 15402...

View attachment 683217 View attachment 683218

Thanks Zedric

From my scanning of Margaine miniature backplates there seems to be three versions of the endscrew cock, a horizontal and vertical alignment of the ratchet wheel cock (and two different click springs), a few different arrow styles, and both "Aiguilles" and "Hands" used. The pillars are all pinned in Margaine miniatures I have seen whereas in Drocourt miniatures you get screws and pins for the pillars.

 

[Leigh Extence]

I don't collate the Margaine clocks as I do the Jacot and Drocourt clocks, as Tom already does this, and so I've just worked on the examples I have seen myself. But I'm of the opinion that the miniature blancs may well have come from a different source than the full size ones. But there is certainly a sort of pattern with the Margaine hand setting arrow design, font for Hands and serial number, although as usual with these things, it only takes one or two to throw this into chaos, as Chris M suggests!

My other view was along the lines of other Chris L-O. Maybe the earlier blancs were supplied to Margaine with the arrow already on the backplate?

I can see many hours of spreadsheet work coming up!

Leigh