Help New Ansonia regulator suspension spring....

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Clockinit, Mar 16, 2020.

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  1. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    Am working on a Korean 31 day clock..It's the same one I had trouble with the mainspring mounting to the arbor...but I digress.... the suspension spring is broken. In the photo you can see the new front mount rod, and spring, as well as the pendulum hanger that I removed. I'm going to have to shorten the rod and re-install the hanger...The post seems to be a very, very little bit narrower at the end (like a pivot). how do I fashion that to accept the hanger after I make the cut? And how should I make the cut:???: Also does the piece with the original broken suspension spring still attached come apart from the brass pieces it still stuck between? It seems tight...Solid tight!! do they come apart:???:

    suspension spring.jpg
     
  2. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    One side of the brass piece goes all the way across from tip to tip. The short pieces is a shouldered collar, on just one side. Hold the longer piece in a vice and the smaller coller piece will usually come off easily using pliers and a twisting motion.

    Willie X
     
  3. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    I guess one side does look slightly longer...?.?.?.? I'll give it a whirl Willie...Thanks...i'll let you know Sir!!

    Bob
     
  4. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    Willie...That worked!! You are the man!! So, any precautions I need to know when drilling a hole in that thin spring metal??
    And what about cutting that post, and refitting the hanger...?
     
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  5. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    It's difficult to make a small round hole in spring steel. My methods are kinda iffey, so I would wait a bit to see what others say.

    The "T" can be installed using a couple of well placed stakes. Or, you can push the wire through the hole and then flattening the wire slightly. Tapping the flattened wire back through the hole will lock the wire into place. Both methods require the wire to be a snug fit into the hole. I prefer the latter method.

    Willie X
     
  6. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    OK, Thanks Willie...We'll see if anybody else weighs in..?.??..Not sure what you mean by ..'a couple of well placed stakes'?? Also it does seem like the end it came off of is narrower (ever so slightly), like a pivot....Is that just because it was 'pressed' onto the pole:???: if I need to make it slightly narrower, how would I do that?
     
  7. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Thin springs can split easily, but I would anneal the end and use a very sharp pointed punch to make the hole, and then clamp it to wood on both sides of the hole and drill it to size.
     
  8. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Staking is done by moving metal with a punch. In this case you could support the brass piece on an anvil over a small hole (or slot) in said anvil. Then use a prick punch (sharp point) to tighten the brass against the wire. The punch has to be placed in just the right spot to move the metal and lock the pieces together. If the stake is too far from the hole, nothing will happen, too close and the metal will break out. So do some practicing first, with either method.

    Willie X
     
  9. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    YEESH!!! Sounds Dicey!! We'll give it a go and see what happens!!
    Thanks Guys!! I'll let you know....
    Oh, There is an indent from the factory.......can I just drill at that point...is tat what it's there for?

    Bob
     
  10. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    One way to make a clean round hole in the this spring is to first get a steel rod (nail etc.) and grind one end flat to make a punch. Place the spring against the end grain of a piece of hard wood. Place the blunt end of the "punch" against the spring and rap it with a hammer. Best to practice a few times, you want to rap it hard enough that the punch goes all the way through. The coupon will end up embedded in the wood leaving a hole in the spring.

    RC
     
  11. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    OK...so I practiced RC's method 3X on the old piece of suspension spring ...I used a regular punch and it worked well...I wasn't sure if the spring was anealed...it appeared to be...
    So I anealed the new spring and the spring seemed too rigid when I punched it (with a 'punch' I made from a nail) and it is showing signs of splitting... How much heat is enough??
     
  12. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    I'm gonna try 'Bugseys method on the spring as I have nothing to lose at this point...
     
  13. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I have never found it necessary to anneal.

    RC
     
  14. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    OK.....So, Im putting this movement back together and I have all the wheels in except the #2 wheels at both great wheels in order to get the spring clamps off. When I wind the springs they click, but when I let go of the key the wheel spins back to where it was...what am I missing :???:
     
  15. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    If the click is working correctly, the only other thing is a wheel out of place or the train is running. Is the verge in place? If not, the escape wheel can run uncontrolled and the whole train will unwind the spring again.
     
  16. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    What you are missing are the #2 wheels. Without the 2nd. wheels in place the main springs are decoupled from the rest of the movement and will not hold winding. Assuming that the movement was fully assembled when you installed the clamps, you should be able to remove the clamps with the movement fully reassembled. Pictures of this movement might help. Korean movements typically have standoffs that hold the end of the springs away from the plates which can complicate the installation a bit.

    RC
     
  17. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    That is the case...I didn't seem to be able to get the clamps in there on to the great wheels ...those standoffs didn't help either......and with the great wheels in there now, and with the clamps on them, I can't get the #2 wheels in...
    Should I be able to have the # 2 wheels in first and then the great wheels with the clamps...?
     
  18. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    #18 Willie X, Mar 18, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2020
    Yes, and use soft iron wire (rebar tie-wire) to retain the spring. This will give you a little more room.

    The spring spreader clips will go in easily, after everything is back together and the springs are completely down.

    Willie X
     
  19. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Usually depends on whether you are assembling the parts on the front plate, or the back, and the design of the movement. Sometimes you place the great wheel first followed by the 2nd. wheel, sometimes you place the 2nd. wheel first followed by the great wheel. Occasionally one may need to place the great wheel and the 2nd. wheel simultaneously. Like Willie suggested, I would use wire instead of clamps on this movement, but if you managed to get the clamps on without forcing anything while the movement was assembled, it seems like you should be able to reassemble with the clamps on. Are you sure all the parts are placed correctly and the right side is up?

    RC
     
  20. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    I wasn't able to get the clamps on to the springs...I kinda' dis-assembled while trying to keep a lid on the springs as I was going...(I know...hap-hazard)...but now I guess I'll take the top plate off
    and try capturing the mainspring with .... wire? and move on from there? IF and AFTER everything is in place...I cut the wire? and by the grace of God the springs should behave? not go flyin
    all over the place?
     
  21. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    The spring spreader clips?...are they the standoffs? How do they come off and back on?
     
  22. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    No, you don't cut the wire as long as it retains the spring. Like when using clamps, you wind the springs once the movement has been assembled. Now there is no tension on the wire and it can be cut safely.

    Uhralt
     
  23. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    That's what I was asking....thanks....!!
     
  24. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    Willie, RC...where do I get soft re-barb wire?? I'll be able to wind that up tight enough when the spring is compressed on the winder?
     
  25. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    Will picture hanging wire work?
     
  26. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Rebar tie wire or suspended ceiling hanging wire is available at places like Lowe's, Ace, Home Depot, and most good hardware stores and contractor supply outlets. These wires are "soft" and meant to be twisted. Other types of steel wire are sold in stores but you only want one of these mentioned.

    You don't want to wind the spring too tight or the restraining wire will pull the arbor off center and you will have a problem getting the wheel in place. Generally, the spring is wound to a diameter that will be just a bit less that the outside diameter of the wheel.

    I can't explain in words how to install the standoffs, but after the spring is in place, wind it enough to release the wire, cut and remove the wire, let the spring completely down and install the standoff. You will need to pull the spring outer coil away from the movement and work the standoff in place.

    RC
     
  27. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    No.
     
  28. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    No, it needs to be 16, 17, or 18 guage tie wire. It's sold in most any hardware store and comes in a roll. Probably a lifetime supply for about $6. I never cut the wire. It can be re-used several times, if you only twist it a couple of turns.

    Note, the spring should be about 1/4" in from the OD of the main wheel, when you tighten and twist the wire. There really isn't much pressure on the wire but it can gain momentum in a split second, if it slipps! So, don't let it slip and all will turn out well ...

    Here is a photo of a 31-Day Japanese movement that has been properly restrained.

    Willie X IMG_20200127_144204.jpg
     
  29. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    OMG!!! Worked like a charm!! AGAIN...!! my hats off to You Clock-Sayers!!! Another question, same clock, sort of original querry...The 'T' for the pendulum hanger is wider than the hooks on the pendulum...by alot. Do I grind down the 'T'? or spread the hooks far enough?? Oh yeah, and does the verge need to be in before I release the springs?

    Bob
     
  30. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    ...Oh and I know now what your talking about in regards to the standoffs...o_O
     
  31. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    The verge should be in place or the clock will start running like crazy when you release the spring.

    Uhralt
     
  32. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    I would alter the brass "T" to fit the pendulum hook. And filing is generally safer and better looking than grinding. When all is done with the fitting, hold the assembly, just above the hook with two fingers, and sight down the complete pendulum assembly. It should be straight as an arrow from top to bottom. Any crooks or bows need to be corrected before putting the pendulum assembly back into the clock.

    Willie X
     
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  33. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    Mechanics wire
    any hardware store
     
  34. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    By whatever name the wire should be solid steel and intended to be tied or twisted. I would not recommend copper or brass wire, In the same gauge sizes equivalent to steel it has inadequate strength to be trusted in this application. For the uninitiated, with wire sizes the smaller the number the heavier the wire. #16 wire is thicker than #18. I find #18 steel wire to be to be fine for main springs up to (but not necessarily including) 0.018" thick by 3/4" wide. #16 is a better choice for the common 0.018" x 3/4" wide main springs and larger.

    It was mentioned that a restraint wire can be reused but to be safe, I would add that this is only true if it isn't untwisted. The wire loop that is used to restrain the spring during removal can be reused to restrain the spring again after cleaning so long as it has not been untwisted. I would never reuse a wire that was previously twisted and untwisted to restrain a main spring.

    With very heavy chime springs I sometimes use two wire restraints, or use two wraps around the spring just to be safe.

    RC
     
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  35. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    OK...Got All that....am working on the pendulum hook and length of the wire....Unfortunately I only have what was left up on the post...I don't have the old wire...I'm wondering what that should be...?
    Any formula?...or can I eyeball it in the case? I hope there's not a lot of calculus involved!!!

    Bob
     
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  36. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    If you look very closely, there are usually some 'ghost marks' left on the case or glass, where the old pendulum scraped against it.

    Short of that, the golden rule is to go long and shorten as necessary in small increments. Do this temporally using tape. I go so far as making the last cut about 1/4 longer than I think it should be. If you're still a little long it's easy make one or two more 'final' cuts before the permanent attachment is made.

    Wilie X
     
  37. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

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    Good advice Willie - I've been in same position as Bob and did the job as you have outlined :)
     
  38. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    Thanks Willie...Will proceed as per your instructions...I will let you know how I make out... o_O
     
  39. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    So...I've got everything together, and put the movement on the test stand...I wind up the mainsprings and the strike spring unravels!!! that's the new spring...I can see on the 2nd wheel that there a couple of bent pins on the lantern gear that I obviously overlooked..! and when the teeth on the great wheel 'meshed' (or didn't mesh) the spring unraveled!! what's the solution for that? can I take a lantern from another movement? are they friction fit? ...OIY!!!

    Bob
     
  40. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Bob,

    Look up 'replacing pinion trundles'.

    "Unraveling" is not a clock term. :) Did your spring break, come unhooked, or did the click fail? Any of these can cause damage to the 2nd arbor and/or the pinion.

    Another (unlikely) thing could be that the pinion was already damaged and the main-wheel simply spun past the damaged area.

    Willie X
     
  41. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Another possibility is that you have some of the wheels in wrong. A pic or two would help.
     
  42. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Lantern pinions are fairly easy to repair. I prefer to replace all the trundles to ensure that they all match. Frequently when there is enough force to bend the lantern trundles you will find that the arbor may also be bent. When the main wheel teeth ripped past the damaged lantern pinion they may also have suffered damage. As already alluded to by others, the real question is did the spring "unraveling" suddenly damage the lantern pinion, or did a previously damaged lantern pinion cause the spring to "unravel"? You said; "that's the new spring". Why was the original spring replaced? It is not uncommon to find that new springs to not fit properly around the winding arbor until the inner coil is tightened to conform to the arbor. If the damage was caused by the new spring coming unhooked, then your repaired lantern pinion will likely be destroyed again as soon as that spring is wound. Please, let us see some pictures of what we have been working with.

    RC
     
  43. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    The original spring was replaced because it had broken.....I believe the new spring is still hooked on the arbor, 'cause I can wind it up some...I do believe also that all the wheels are in their correct places....I can't say whether I damaged the pinions in the re-assembly or they got damaged when the spring broke originally...Willie X... :)!! what is the correct term? unwound?
    I will take the train apart and inspect all again...I'll provide photos...Thanks for the input, Guys!!:cuckoo:
     
  44. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Kablooey !!! Willie
     
  45. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    Sounds dead on Willie!!!!
     
  46. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    Here are pics of the lantern on the #3 wheel...prodding some, the one trundle broke off...you can see the other is bent and cracked...I'm gonna look up how to replace pinion trundles and see where that path leads me..."just some more learnin' that's got ta be done."...I like it!!!:=
     
  47. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    oops!!! forgot the pics....

    lantern4.jpg lantern3.jpg lantern2.jpg lantern 1.jpg
     
  48. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    I see Bangster has some good stuff on replacing the trundles!! I am going to get one out of a used movement and practice a bit...See what happens!!
    Wish me luck!!

    Bob
     
  49. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    You'll need to replace the trundles with pivot wire of the same thickness. Otherwise you'll be introducing other meshing issues.
     
  50. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    Got it...'Bugsey...what exactly is champfering?
     

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