New Acquisition, Looking to date this Junghans

digitalblsphemy

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This Junghans followed me home. I have no information on it. I would love to know its age, I'm guessing @ 1904-ish?
The movement has the usual Junghans star on the rear plate. Upper left on the rear plate has the number 118 stamped.
Also next to the Mfg star has a series of 3 letters, which escapes me at the moment. It's running on a test wall for the last 8 days right now. The pictures below are prior to the servicing, cleaning and oil. all of the finials were missing.
Any information would be appreciated. 20220516_155920.jpg

20220516_155956.jpg
 

new2clocks

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This Junghans followed me home. I have no information on it. I would love to know its age, I'm guessing @ 1904-ish?
The movement has the usual Junghans star on the rear plate. Upper left on the rear plate has the number 118 stamped.
Also next to the Mfg star has a series of 3 letters, which escapes me at the moment. It's running on a test wall for the last 8 days right now. The pictures below are prior to the servicing, cleaning and oil. all of the finials were missing.
Any information would be appreciated. View attachment 710391

View attachment 710392
We need to see a clear picture of the back of the movement.

Junghans date coded their movements commencing in 1901. Without that picture, my estimate is the clock could have been made anywhere from 1890 to WW I.

Regards.
 

digitalblsphemy

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It's not numerical. It's three letters. I would have to pull the movement to see.
It's something like WMF?
 

new2clocks

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It's not numerical. It's three letters. I would have to pull the movement to see.
It's something like WMF?
Some Junghans movements show three letters. The reason for these letters is unknown.

The following are some of the documented three letters from Junghans movements:

- SAH

- GAA

- VAH

- EAH

There may be more.

It seems as if your movement has no date code, which implies your movement was made between 1890 and 1900.

When you get the opportunity, please show clear pictures of the back of the movement with the trademark and lettering.

Regards.
 

Betzel

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Upper left on the rear plate has the number 118 stamped.
More often than not this is the rough beats per minute. Did you do a train count? If not, since you have the original pendulum and have already serviced it (well done!) if it is keeping time well you can run it on a counter. Seems like it would run faster than that based on size though.

Looking forward to seeing some movement pictures up close.
 

digitalblsphemy

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Ok I finally pulled the clock of the test wall.
Yes it ran accurately for 9 days, within 3-4 minute gain.
Yes there is a "J" within the star on the back. The code under the star is "B12" (see photo)
I let the movement run down. While winding it I noticed the movement moved (up) out of its bracket.
Now here's a question
Usually there are thumb screws on the bottom of the movement bracket to hold it in place.
This one has 1 1/2" screws installed horizontally with thumb screws on the ends. which I thought held it in the bracket.
WRONG! They serve no purpose that I can see on closer inspection. (see photos), other than making in sure it doesn't fall through. (doubtful...) Missing? Broken? pieces I don't know.
This was a salvage clock I came across , worked on and re-assembled
So what is the function of these horizontal screw sets, and how do I secure this movement and keep it from jumping out of the bracket every time I wind it?

20220526_153337.jpg
20220526_153646.jpg 20220526_153634.jpg
 

Betzel

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Usually there are thumb screws on the bottom of the movement bracket to hold it in place.
...
So what is the function of these horizontal screw sets, and how do I secure this movement and keep it from jumping out of the bracket every time I wind it?
I don't know, but I am guessing the lock-in mechanism was changed for some reason. That reason could be either a different movement was put in this case and it was not sitting high enough, or there was a failure in the original mechanism (like someone cross-threading the thumbscrew in the pillar and breaking it off, etc.) or something else. We may never know, but two devastating world wars were on the horizon, and wars have a way of causing strange things to happen. Difficult times call for difficult measures, etc.

From the pictures, I see the original rails in what may be brass-plated steel. I think you are right that these once functioned in the usual way, with the bottom plates touching the top of the original rail, and a thumbscrew locking it all in place from underneath. Now, it seems, a steel plate with a set of bars forming a horizontal groove (see picture above in the vice clams) have all been bolted to the bottom of the clock, such that (I think) the groove in that added metal plate and bars will slide horizontally into the "tongue" created by the top part of the modified rails, like a wood desk drawer, etc.

If the slot in the new steel grooves will slide horizontally into the top rail, the new thumbscrews tighten the rails to "pinch" them tightly against the grooves and hold it all in place. It looks like there is one side-screw missing. The one that is shown in the photo appears to be nicely blued steel with a square locator and round head, much like a "carriage bolt" and a nicely straight-knurled nut. I hope it works this way and you have the other bolt?

If it's a much later modification, it's fairly well done. I've seen quite a bit of butchery in modifications and this one is not as annoying :)

I don't know the wood type used here, but it's fun to make finials. Chuck a piece of scrap wood up in your lathe with a live center on the tail end and cut them yourself, experimenting in pine than making the final finial in good wood. Might want to do it outdoors or wear a mask as it's a dusty process, but you can make them quite easily, leaving a stub to glue into the case. Sharp tools leave a nice finish that may not require much more work. Good luck!
 
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digitalblsphemy

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BETZEL
Thanks for the input. Yes the screws are made similar to a carriage bolt. Yes, I have both. I'll post a better picture.
The glides attached to the movement slide easily into the bracket. Unfortunately the screws are below the "glides" on the movement, doing very little to hold the movement itself. I'll have to play with the holding bracket and see if I can make it tighter. IDK.
I found a very nice person in Poland who hand makes finial sets, and crowns for RA, GB models. Does beautiful work @ reasonable price. All out of "alder wood" too.
stayed tuned...
 

Betzel

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Okay. Glad you have them both!

I guess they were not blued after all? Because I love doing it, and the look, rust resistance, etc. I would probably blue them, but it's just me.

I'm still not sure if the modification works to slide it in like "the works in a drawer" and the clamps pinch sideways to hold, but maybe you will post better pictures once you figure it all out?

Alder is fine if that's what was there originally or it looks good after it's stained, etc. I thought if you enjoyed the overhaul, you would get a kick out of turning your own, but that's great too. I use Beechwood which looks very much like alder, but is harder. Polishes up very nicely. Most cheap rolling pins are made of it if you change your mind. $3.50ish so nothing to lose ;-)
 

Betzel

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It's just an easy way to find material, paying less. I pick up brass and steel scraps I find laying around like "forged in fire" episodes. Wine crates make excellent replacement doors for old German cuckoo clocks, and hacksaw blades are perfect for making replacement clock hands from scratch, etc. This is a fun hobby, I think. Ordering material from specialty clock supply stores is expensive and slow, but to each his own ;-)
 

digitalblsphemy

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Betzel
I agree about the slow supply store responses and the expenses as well.
I have a question for you. The finial set I ordered came in today. Really nicely done I might add. I discovered Something I hadn't noticed before about the crown, (topper, head piece). The holes in the crown are smaller than the ones in the bottom of the clock. Bottom finials will fit fine into the clock base. I obviously have a mismatched crown from another clock.
Regarding the age of the crown, would you re-drill the crown or shave down the finial pins?
I'm nervous about drilling...
20220603_131002.jpg
 

Betzel

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Quick answer: A solid piece of advice the Brits (BHI) imparted to me in their courses, which is promoted in all respectful traditions, is to ALWAYS make any new material fit the original work, and never the other way round. I do this even if the work has itself may have been altered. Battle scars are part of each clock's war stories...so, I would not drill, either. Just trim the finials.

- - -

There's a lot I've learned here from the gang. Way more to come, I'm sure. But, it's essentially experience and detective / forensic work.

On many of these, the top board was not actually the crown, see photos of some reconstructions. Not sure what the various part names are, but if you look carefully at your top end you may (or may not) see faint dirt or finish lines from where another piece of wood may once have been mounted perpendicularly on the top, like in these photos. Often they were installed via a crescent shaped slot-cut maybe 3mm wide and 15mm deep in the center cut with a "quick dip" of a circular saw. I think it's called a "dai doh" or something like that where the blade intentionally wobbles, as shown by Norm Abram. Maybe the makers chose finials for some cases, crowns for others or both --so the holes in your clock (the top) may have never been used? We may never know. Choose the look you like, in keeping with what you think once was?

Anyway, I don't think different sized holes would be enough to say whether any part is original or not. Your finials look good and I hope they match the existing wood(s) and the other finials if any survived. I'm sure they will all look good when you're done. Match the finial you like best for each individual hole, then trim?

I would probably just scrape with a paring knife. It's not a balance staff. And I would make a slight taper and any other shaping needed to make them sit right and sit tight. Make a few test fits and only whack them home when gluing. You might want to take an old threaded bolt, smaller than the diameter of the holes and scrape out as much old glue, dirt, wax, etc. as you can before you start trimming. If you do overshoot, as you likely know, a few drops of water will expand wood like a sponge and much of it will stay after the water evaporates. We do this because it's fun, so there's no reason to hurry ;-)

All the best!

3.jpg 2.jpg 1.jpg 4.jpg
 

digitalblsphemy

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Betzel
Thank you for the reply.
As you well know these restorations are a lot of trial and error . Solid advise by the way.
Upon further investigation only the header, crown is involved with smaller holes. The clock base,(bottom) they fit fine with a little coaching.
 

Betzel

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Mine have been a lot of error, learning both on my own and from others here, but it's getting better.. My clocks have not been rare or valuable (yet?). I was only asking if (after looking for any evidence) the top of your clock may ever have had more than finials, like something in the center above the crown. The holes would likely be the same either way. Maybe the top is not original...

Maybe your did not, but many did. And, many restorers choose not to replace that "thingy," if there originally. Looking at these pictures, it may not be a bad solution to just let it go. Usually, the choices are crappy supplier stock or a hack job by people better at repairing movements than working with wood (like me) ;-)

We've wandered off topic (your new clock) a little, so post your final pix when you're done? I admire Junghans and I see a lot of darker wood cases in this style, but not so many in lighter tones. Based on the year made, I think the dial may be "Ivorine" which, if it is, is like celluloid over paper. Be careful, it's thin; the off-white patina has an honest look.
 

digitalblsphemy

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As I said before I don't this header, crown belongs to this clock, but it works for me. The slot on top of the clock must be 7-8" long. This is a lighter tone case for sure which I kind of prefer. Has that "old world" look to it. I only use a dark wax on certain faded areas, which works for me. I have a lot of grunt work to do sanding down those finial pins before I'm done. The dial I pretty sure is porcelain, in good shape as well. I will say when I lightly cleaned the dial certain areas turned color , similar to cracks in a dial but disappeared once dried.
stay tuned..
 
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Betzel

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Now that it is all together I see the crown was in first post, second photo.

Most of these were attached in just this way, as the slots were cut in the factory with a circular saw blade making them very wide, but not using the whole length of the slot, just the center. Sometimes, there's a faint shadow or staining marks around the crown, but if it was replaced a long time ago, it may all look original, so we'll never know. Still, the color is very good, the large rosette is well-done and a nice match to the rest of the crown as well as the smaller one on the case door, and the pillars are also all very compatible. Could be original. The arch and bezel are also about the same size and shape, so I think marriage is a stretch, but the bezel seems pushed up a little bit. The modifications on the clamping rack may well have been a well-intended repair. Were there stripped threads or sawn-off bolts for thumbscrews in the bottom movement pillars?

Amyway, it looks pretty good today...congrats!
 

digitalblsphemy

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The movement and attached dial are still a nightmare. There is no locking point, (home) in the bracket so it's completely trial and error. It slides in (barely), with some insistence on my part. It takes some maneuvering to get the movement level in the bracket. Ninety % of the time you'll have one slide in and the other outside, riding the top rail. When you do manage to line it up correctly you have slide the movement front to back until the chime hammer is correct and not jammed against the gong. Sounds easy but it's not. Then and only then you have to screw those thumb screws tight and hope they hold.
I've re-positioned the hammer a 100 times, and it never works.
The way I described above is the only way I got the hammer & gong lined up.
But, now it's hanging in my office happily running and sounding like a cathedral bell.

Thanks for the wisdom and the compliments. 20220609_154811.jpg
 

Betzel

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I don't miss the pegboard and that rack job was an oddball repair. Now you have to find your next clock ;-)

All of us have been tortured by rack/thumbscrew placement, hammer bending and whatnot. Some newer units I've serviced have not been bent by well-meaning repairers, and I noticed they were set up such that the cage slides all the way home, the hammer head is adjusted right up to the gong center arm for a good sound, and the bezel is almost flat, where it belongs behind the glass. Not a lot of fussing around. Either improvements were made over time, or many units from days of old have had new hammers, gongs, etc. replaced or removed and not put back where they once were, etc. so things became "bent out of shape."

You may someday make yourself a slot-wrench to sneak in behind a mounted clock to fine-adjust so many rods. Welcome to the club.
 

digitalblsphemy

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Slot-wrench, now there's a novel idea! Why didn't I think of that.... :?|
 

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