Never seen this before. Odd part in Gilbert movement.

CJo

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This is something I’ve never seen before. First thought it was a someone’s way of doing a bushing but not sure. This surely isn’t part of the original movement, is it? This is a Gilbert movement out of a kitchen clock. What are your thoughts or inputs. Thanks!

32A73411-BF8F-4D4B-8DE2-437A84551AEB.jpeg 521518C2-88E7-4AE5-9054-A37804A81638.jpeg 014764F5-98D6-4AD3-8574-71FB417D0A0C.jpeg
 
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Altashot

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Strange...
Looks like an attempt at making a shoddy bushing job.
Definitely not original, ugly and possibly ineffective.

M.
 

Dave T

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I wouldn't go so far to say that it's a proper job, but I would say that whoever did it spent a lot of time on it. Depending on where you are and what resources you have, you have to be inventive occasionally.
 
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CJo

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Strange...
Looks like an attempt at making a shoddy bushing job.
Definitely not original, ugly and possibly ineffective.

M.
That’s what it looked like, but figured out that someone tried to make a ‘not original’ wheel work. The wheel, pivot to pivot is shorter than all the others in the time train. Fiddle sticks, now I have to see if I have a junk Gilbert movement to scavage from.
 

Dave T

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That makes sense. I was also trying to figure out how he got proper endplay on the arbor, if it was a bushing repair.
 

CJo

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Okay, had a senior moment, it does fit between the plates.Thinking ofsleeving part of the pivot do I can do away with the extra piece that was added on then putting a bushing in the plate. Here are a couple of side views of what it looks like right now before I do what I’m thinking, unless someone has a better idea. I’m always open to suggestions.

E2BF6CD3-66B3-4F3F-ADA7-F3B6CCA6D4F2.jpeg 0FB812C5-F2BF-4B9D-8B93-E4514966B1F2.jpeg
 

Dave T

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Not exactly sure, but it appears that the pivot on the arbor for that gear was probably broken and the former repair was made to accommodate the shortened arbor.
At any rate it will need a new pivot and a bushing for proper repair. (And get rid of all those parts)
 
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Thomas Sanguigni

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You may need a lathe to make a new steel arbor Take lots of measurements of the original arbor thickness and some photos. I'd use a crow's foot and pop off the old wheel. More than likely a bushing in the plate will be necessary too. With a new arbor, everything will be nice and straight, and you can give it proper end play too.

I think it would take about the same amount of time to try and fit a sleeve. The new arbor would bring back the unit to an original state.
 
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R. Croswell

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I can't say that I recognize that part, but it has far too complex a shape to simply be a spacer, and I would not be too quick to assume that this wheel is a replacement. It almost looks like a lever that is sharing that pivot as a pivot point. Are you sure that this part - this lever - doesn't actually have an intended function? If it were mine, I think I would leave it alone, service the movement, then see that the clock runs and strikes as it should. If that part has a purpose it likely will become clear the day after you dispose of it.

RC
 

Tim Orr

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Good evening, all!

I'm in agreement with RC and Dave T: I wouldn't remove/replace this until I knew exactly what it was for. It's an extraordinarily complex shape. It looks to me as though a spring mounted (very professionally, it seems to me) on the edge of the plate is pushing the part, perhaps to orient the pivot properly – or not – or something else. Seems like someone went to a lot of trouble to do this. I'd like to know why before trashing it.

Might be a home-brew Rathbun substitute, but if it is, it's the most elaborate one I've ever seen. And the workmanship is not sloppy.

Best regards!

Tim Orr
 
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Willie X

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I've seen that before.

It is part of the clock and shairs that pivot only as a point of rotation. It's actuated and located by the little flat spring riding in that slot in that odd shaped (squarish) center part. I can't place it's actual function. But likely, part of a passing strike, or possibly a turn-back feature. The inboard end would ride on some type of cam on the hand shaft.

Like RC, I think the function will become apparent when the clock is back together, although some part/s might be missing, like a bell?

Willie X
 
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Tbucket

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Here's a photo of the same movement that I had years ago. I took the photo because of the previous repair that was done on the spring. I figured that it had come off & there wasn't enough of the 2 posts left to re-stake it, so it had been soldered fast. you can see the same square shaped part on the inside of the plate. Unfortunately I don't remember what the function was but the clock ran fine.

2018-04-07 07.40.00.jpg
 
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Willie X

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Tb,
About the same here. I recognized the part's shape, probably from long ago, but can't place the function ... My guess is that it lifted and dropped a hammer wire on the half? Glad you had the photo. Willie X
 
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shutterbug

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It would be interesting to know how often that wheel makes a full rotation. That might help identify it's function. I don't recall ever seeing a movement like that, but agree that it looks factory made.
 
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Bruce Alexander

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I agree with the Village Elders. This is not a hack, and Tbucket has proven as much.

We can't see enough of the surrounding mechanism to determine what the purpose of this assembly is.

There is a little hook on that shim and so it seems to me that it may be designed to rotate against the tension of the spring for some reason.


Perhaps some type of turn-back feature (as per Willie) judging from the wheel's location/function.
What might work against that hook (or the larger tabs) is not clear. Perhaps one of the Strike Levers?

Obvious questions are, do you have any pre-disassembly photos?
Can you tell/show us more about the clock this movement comes out of?
Are there any "complications". Calendar, or alarm functions?
Is the clock's label still present?

Perhaps the little "hook" is acted upon by the leaf spring which is fixed to the plate and the assembly would be rotated 180 degrees bringing the other spring's longer "leg" within the path of the minute arbor's strike lift wire/cam?

This couldn't be the "J" wire, could it?

I know I'm reaching here...

Perhaps something was disabled before the clock landed on your bench.

When you have it all put back together and figured out please clue us in. :?|
 
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Willie X

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In that last photo, I'm pretty sure the suspect part is installed upside down. You can see the arc shaped rub mark below where the longer side went. And, the flat spring would then play on the tip of the odd little finger on the square part.

Yes, it could indeed be a form of "J " hook, WITH setback feature.

I luv me a good clock puzzle and there seems to be plenty of em. Willie X
 

CJo

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I was asked to clean this movement, it was extremely dirty. The owner had redone a lot of the case, but the label was still on the back. So here are a few pics. Unfortunately, I only took a picture of the front before disassembling it. It ran overnight with just time side in. But after seeing all the new info, I will reverse what I had done and get it back to the way the movement was originally. Then once I get both trains in I’ll report back.

BDDA26ED-3EB5-462C-880A-A7F0A47E320B.jpeg 81B5114F-5E93-4918-8035-C2C4BDEA66C9.jpeg 1377B467-E703-4500-A398-563B462B5F77.jpeg
 
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Jmeechie

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Hi,
I believe the spring is there to tension, eliminate the slop in the minute wheel as this gear is not under load and the lift arm is also attached to operate the strike.
Normally the lift is on the centre shaft which is under load. This i believe was an attempt to eliminate the hand slop so common on this style of movement..Otherwise every half hour, the minute hand would jump, move, a little more than slightly, every time the strike lift wire dropped off.
Cheers,
James
 

CJo

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When I first took the movement apart, I never noticed that one part till it fell as I was pulling gears out. So, all this time I was as Willy said, putting it in wrong. Made a big difference once I put it in correctly. So thankfully I hadn’t made any changes that I couldn’t undo.So as the pin from the center wheel comes around it lifts the brass piece, which at the other end lifts the warning lever. Then once it drops the brass piece that has slight tension it the the clock strikes. Pretty nifty.Although I feel like a real dummy not figuring this out sooner, it was a really good learning experience that I won’t forget

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Bruce Alexander

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Don't feel bad CJo.

The important thing is that you got it figured out and that you'll get everything put back together without hacking up the movement ot make it work.

I think that we've all been there as far as having those "Oh-oh, how does that work?" moments. All too often I'll still have a washer fall out of the movement from "somewhere", or find one in my basket after I take the parts out of the Ultrasonic Cleaner with no idea of where it came off of.

This does illustrate the benefit to taking a lot of pre-disassembly photos and running the movement through all of its functions so that you understand what goes where and why. Taking notes and even making basic sketches can help a great deal because photos alone won't capture all of the hidden details.

What might be helpful to folks in the future would be to ask shutterbug or an admin look into editing the Title of your Thread into something like "Unusual Gilbert Strike Mechanism with Turnback Feature", or anything that someone can easily find in the future. This is definitely a departure from the normal design we're all familiar with. I can almost guarantee you that the question "What the heck is this?" will come up again.

Congrats on getting it figured out, and thanks for taking the time to share your photos! :thumb:

Regards,

Bruce
 
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shutterbug

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Some folks complain that we get the same questions over and over. But once in a while, something new comes up that even the experienced guys haven't seen before .... or at least don't remember seeing ;)
It's nice to occasionally get educated ourselves. Thanks for sharing!

Bruce, I did change the title slightly to help future searchers. Good idea!
 
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Bruce Alexander

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Sometimes I feel s little like Rodney Dangerfield.
Rodney_Danagerfield_1972-1.jpg
I'm sure I deserve it. :chuckling:

Edit:

Thanks to Tim and Willie for their years of experience setting the record straight.
All true but let's not forget RC who, in post #9, was the first to recognize these as unusual manufactured parts and not part of some unusual but tidy hack.
 
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Bruce Alexander

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Yep. RC often makes one think. Good thing we all have the Village Elders to help keep us out of the Hall of Shame Thread.

“Once I pulled a job, I was so stupid. I picked a guy's pocket on an airplane and made a run for it.”
― Rodney Dangerfield
 
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