Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Unfortunately, I do not have the time available to confirm or deny my recollections on this. The story I remember is that Bond survey chronometers were used as part of the mapping of the geodetic survey marks that were used to map out state lines in the Northwest Territory, It is possible that this is just fantasy on my part, but that is the memory. As noted by Doc Jon in regard to the Crystal Palace, the English had a strong tendency to overlook developments in America. Crossman is not the most reliable source, as you know, but he talks about Bond supplying designs to English chronometer makers to build instruments for them. Bond's time distribution system used the Lund synchronizer from Barraud & Lund for at least some installations.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer If it'd be useful to anyone, here's the Bond No. 231 with dial marked Hutton [John], London, made for Wm. Bond & Son, Boston ...
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Hi Dave, I see you found the thread. Nice chronometer, and thanks for posting the picture as it shows clearly, Bond, didn't make all of his instruments. Tom, It wouldn't surprise me at all if your not 100% correct, with your recollection, that Bond chronometers were used in that survey. If it were being done by the Navy, or any other government agency supplied by the Naval Observatory, they could have used chronometers by any of the American makers or British for that matter. I'm aware that non break- circuit chronometers were also used for U.S. Government Surveying and even important scientific projects. All the main purpose of the break circuit did was to reduce the human error of reaction time associated to timing with the instrument. I appreciate you and Dr. Jon posting, on these marine chronometer discussions, as we seem to have somewhat neglected them on the board. You both have been involved with this topic, and precision time, for many years and can contribute, I think, a great deal on the subject. Perhaps we are a small group of collectors but that doesn't mean we don't have the desire to uncover and share information, or learn from others. burt
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer In relation to the discussion of the break circuit on chronometers I offer the following. In the 1877 Reports from Commissioners by Great Britain, which appears to be a report on the Philadelphia Expo of 1876 to Parliament, there is a discussion on the Negus display in the US naval portion US Gov't exhibition. Aside from being very complimentary of the Negus Firm and their products, credit is given to the Negus Firm of being the first to apply a condenser to the break circuit to avoid sparking thereby eliminating adhesion of the contacts. This was considered a great advancement. Unfortunately there is no discussion of when this was introduced by Negus. Wouldn't it be nice to have a Forum section dedicated to Chronometers and the like regardless of their origination. This would eliminate the need to search all Forum subjects. I have seen like topics across three Forum titles. I realize we are a small group but why not? Paul
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Paul, the only problem I see is where it would live. An alternative is to use the tag feature to find all the chronometer threads. If you scroll down below the thread to see the tag list, you can click on the tag "chronometer" and see all the threads on the subject. If you find a thread on the subject that does not have that keyword, you can add it to the tag list and it will show up the next time someone looks.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Thanks Tom, that helps a lot. Still would be nice to have a generic Chronometer forum. Paul
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer I asked my friend about his early Bond break circuit chronometer. He said the break circuit detent was original but the chronometer dated from 1880, not 1860 as I had thought. He has sold it, so we cannot get pictures of it. I can post a link to the auction catalog where it was sold: http://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/2527M/lots/287
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer I thought I would go back to some of the Naval Observatory reports, I had the opportunity to look at and perhaps come to some kind of conclusion or find supporting information on this break-circuit dating question. What I can state is, that in the 1871 report, although no breakdown is specifically noted, there is no mention about a B-C chronometer in the inventory. In the 1897 report, it's a clear issue as stated, 481 total chronometers in the inventory, 7 M.T. and 10 Sidereal with the break circuit feature. As to the Bond chronometer, Tom was talking about and posted and the known 1863 Negus chronometer (converted 1882) both we not modified until the 1880's. Can we draw some kind of conclusion from this sparse information? Certainly not "scientifically" as we have limited examples and information but perhaps the N.O. didn't purchase any B-C chronometer until after 1871? As they did buy foreign instruments and the break circuit feature was available (in the 1860's), why didn't they buy them earlier in time? Or did they? Even in the late 1890's the percentage of B-C chronometers was very low compared to the standard chronometer. Maybe the earlier modifications didn't perform as well as expected or the N.O. didn't see a need? I'm aware that U.S. Army, at that time was very slow to adopt change in the area of firearms, so was this the same in the Navy?
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Whitney in his book, "The Ships Chronometer", identifies "America's Foremost Chronometer Makers" as William Bond & Son, John Bliss & Son and the T.S & J.D. Negus brothers. I thought I'd see if I could come up with any break circuit information from the Bliss firm as we pretty much looked into the other two. I couldn't find anything that may shed more light on the subject than has been posted. I did find something fairly interesting. It's been posed, that the Negus brothers firm ended in 1962, and that their last location was at 69 Pearl St. in New York City. I found out that the Bliss company ended in 1956 at a location just down the street at 84 Pearl. Perhaps whatever the circumstances which affected ones closing affected both? This add is from The New York Times, dated August 19, 1956
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer For those who collect data. Negus MC 1705 sold at UK auction yesterday for £1350, no outer case. Peter
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer This is probably a dumb question, but when did they start using electricity on navy ships? I am guessing that the B-C was used to telegraph the time to the bridge and possibly the captain and navigator quarters.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Well persistence I think just paid off? I think this answers why no break- circuit chronometers were in the 1871 N.O. inventory and who may have made the first. At least in America. "The Observatory" 1887,No. 121, page 140 "At that time, however, break-circuit chronometers had ceased to become a novelty in the United States. In 1872 the coast survey observers had two of them in the outfit at our Sherman Expedition and in 1874 all eight of the astronomical transit of Venus parties were supplied with them. I think the first was made by Bond & Co. of Boston in 1870 or 1871; but Negus of New York and other makers at once followed suit. They have been in common use here for more than 12 years and have quite supplanted clocks in all field astronomy and in many small observatories." C.A. Young, January 18, 1887, Princeton, N.J. With so few B-C (M.T.) 7 chronometers in the entire inventory (1897) I wouldn't think they were assigned to ships for navigation purposes? Perhaps they were reserved for the geographic and scientific arena's only. I think Prof. Young's remark about "novelty"says a lot to me.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer That fits more with my perception of them. It is hard to see a big advantage in naval navigation. You still need to shoot the sun or stars and have a deck watch for that purpose. In so far as the chronometer is the master timekeeper on the ship, the distribution of time is domestic just as on land. In on-land survey work, you have instant measurement from remote sites as far as you can string wire. I believe these, like telegraphs, used a single wire earth return signalling system. I wonder how much voltage was required to get the current down 200 miles of wire?
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer The way these break-circuit chronometers worked was in conjunction with a portable device called a field chronograph. These instruments were used at observatories, with precision clocks, to record timing events with great precision. The B-C chronometer would only need to send a signal to the adjacent chronograph which consisted of a precise and constant revolving drum covered with a sheet of paper.The chronometer would be electrically connected to a pen which moved horizontally across the paper. This pen would trace a continuous line on the paper graph marking off each second.When the B-C chronometer triggered a signal, it would break or interrupt the circuit and cause the pen to record that event "accurately and permanently" on the paper graph. This information would be recorded and be available to be then interpreted at a later time. This would also eliminate the reaction time of a human operator. Here is the actual "Chronograph" used at the Allegheny Observatory here in Pittsburgh, Pa. This gives a good idea of what these instruments looked like. This historic one, was used to, established Railroad Standard Time in America which was eventually adopted as Stand Time.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Remember that the first use was with mules and backpacks, not trains. If you hike the Allegheny Trail, I think there are references to some of the markers that were put in place a couple of hundred years ago (almost).
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Tom, Being from Pennsylvania, your early reference to chronometer usage, reminder me of the "Mason- Dixon" boarder dispute. Many people think this was a Civil War issue but that is not correct. This was a land claim between Pennsylvania and Maryland that resulted in violent conflict and lasted some 80 years. To settle the mater, Charles Mason and Jeremiah Dixon were contracted to set the boarder, between the two states, with a scientific survey which began in January 1764 and took about 4 1/2 years to complete. Your right about means of travel as there were certainly no trains at that time. It's reported that they used the finest of instruments, available at the time, including a chronometer made by John Harrison! As to markers, which you pointed out, they started with one called the "Star Gazers Stone" which was at their observatory near Embreeville, which is located in, south eastern Pennsylvania. I'm posting a picture of the stone which I found and credit to the Wikipedia free encyclopedia. Thanks for bringing up the subject. I think we have demonstrated, a very early and certainly important usage of the "marine" chronometer being adapted for scientific usage on land. I'm beginning to more appreciate the attraction of these very interesting pieces of horology to collectors.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer In trying to find more info on Negus No. 1175 (none yet), I accidentally found additional info on Bond No. 231. As I posted earlier the Hutton/Bond dial is marked "Hutton, London made for Wm. Bond & Son Boston No. 231". Can I trust that the serial number is a Hutton number, and therefore made before the greater Hutton nos. used in the 1855 Harvard/London astronomy mappings? If so that would date No. 231 prior to 1855. Either way, I found in the published reports that it was referred to as "Hutton No. 231", "Bond & Son No. 231" and "Bond No. 231" within various astrological expeditions, on land and sea, between 1869-1894. And that it was used to mark sidereal time, mean time, and standard time in order to make corrections for other chronometers, on different occasions.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Burt, do you mean for the Hutton/Bond No. 231, or for the Negus No. 1175?
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer The Negus. I think you did a great job with the Bond. Information, like you found, does not seem to come easy with these chronometers and you have to be lucky!
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer In my search to determine Hutton/Bond No. 231 numbering and dating, I'm using this list of chronometers from "The Harvard-Liverpool Chronometric Expedition of 1855", which may be helpful to others, and which shows that Bond No. 236 and Hutton No. 343 where already is use at that time:Mean Solar Chronometers - Bond & Sons 140 139 141 146 - Barraud 2221 5176 2207 2194 2183 2227 2231 2186 5170 5175 - John Hutton 318 317 314 330 328 331 341 343 301 320 280 272 289 - Thos Adams 3983 3893 3895 3896 4200 4201 - Rich. Hornby 715 - F. B. Adams 274 Sidereal Chronometers - Bond & Sons 236 - John Hutton 310 312 311 Dave
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Burt, I haven't found as much detail on the Negus line (yet!), and thanks for the start!
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Dave, Thanks for sharing your information. I hope it helps someone either to research or at least approximately date their chronometer. The luck part is when you find YOUR NUMBER! What if off only one digit, then aside from a approximate built date, your back to square one.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Wow - so (Professor) William C. Bond and his son George P. Bond (Astronomer) were directing the Cambridge Observatory, discovering asteroids and planets, and organizing and writing the reports on most of the early transatlantic "chronometer expeditions" for the government, and at the same time selling precision clocks and chronometers. I notice in their early reports they don't call out the other makers much, nor their own products. It may all make some sense of the relationship with Hutton, i.e., your reports may gain more credibility if they're based on the tools of another (or at least, not solely on the tools of your own making, and purchased for same)?
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer In 2006 an 8-day chronometer was sold at auction with dial engraved " T.S. Negus & Co. 100 Wall ST. New York No. 1076", so that may help some with dating Negus nos. before and after the company changed names ... Hold on ... No. 1026 is signed TS & JD Negus, like No. 1175 ... :/
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer 1857 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 100 Wall St. 1859 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 100 Wall St. 1862 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 100 Wall St. 1867 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 100 Wall St. 1868 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 100 Wall St. 1870 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 140 Water St. 1872 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 140 Water St. 1873 - listed as TS & JD Negus at 140 Water St. 1874 - listed as TS & JD Negus at 140 Water St.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Found the 1869 detail, and whittled it down to the more important years ... 1857 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 100 Wall St. 1868 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 100 Wall St. 1869 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 140 Water St. 1872 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 140 Water St. 1873 - listed as TS & JD Negus at 140 Water St.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Dave, I was comparing the information you found to the reported Negus family history, by the great- great granddaughter of J.D. Negus, Betty Childs Klaviter. Can you tell the source of your dating? Was it city directories or another reliable publication? You may have uncovered accurate and verifiable information that could correct what we now have. So far we have agreement on the first business location of 100 Wall St. What I read in print, from that history, was that the location changed to 140 Walter in 1890. That could be a simple typo from your first date of 1870? I have the name change, again from the family history, during 1869. I have reason to think it's even earlier. You have it at 1873. The family records the company moving to the 69 Pearl St. location on May 1,1937. That's seems like a pretty reliable and specific date? I have found nothing on the 84 Wall St. location mentioned by both Whitney and Mercer. Perhaps we can come together with a more accurate history and information source that collectors and future collectors can take to the bank.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Burt, the information I have is from the city directories for New York, all but one (I'll have to look it up) were from the Trow's city directories for New York in each of those years, so I suspect the data is reliable (+/- one year) given the time it took to compile and print the directories. I also found that JD was with TS from almost the very start, and at first JD was listed as "Watch maker" while TS was listed as "Chronometer maker", and later they were both listed as "Chronometer maker". In the IRS tax rolls (1862-1866) they both paid taxes on watches, pianos and chronometers, and JD had an additional entry for silver work.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer another 1852 Troy's entry - JD is not listed in this one: 1852 - listed as Thomas S. Negus, chronometers. at 100 Wall St. and the 1857 date is as of May of 1857 ... so I have so far: 1852 - listed as Thomas S. Negus, chronometers. at 100 Wall St. 1857 (May) - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 100 Wall St. 1868 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 100 Wall St. 1869 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 140 Water St. 1872 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 140 Water St. 1873 - listed as TS & JD Negus at 140 Water St.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer correction: 1852 - listed as Thomas S. Negus, chronometers. at 100 Wall St. 1856 (as of May 1, 1857) - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 100 Wall St. 1857 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 100 Wall St. 1868 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 100 Wall St. 1869 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 140 Water St. 1872 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 140 Water St. 1873 - listed as TS & JD Negus at 140 Water St. also, Thomas does not show up in the Doggett's NYC directory of 1848 (Bliss, Eggert, Harding and Huguenin do as "chronometer maker" ...)
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Somewhat of a bingo but also with the "& Co.", F[T]S Negus & Co, chronometer maker, shows up in an 1850 New York Mercantile Union business directory at 84 Wall St! 1850 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 84 Wall St. 1852 - listed as Thomas S. Negus, chronometers. at 100 Wall St. 1856 (as of May 1, 1857) - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 100 Wall St. 1857 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 100 Wall St. 1868 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 100 Wall St. 1869 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 140 Water St. 1872 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 140 Water St. 1873 - listed as TS & JD Negus at 140 Water St. The same 1850 directory on a different page also shows P[T]S Negus & Co, chronometer maker, at 84 Wall St
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer In an 1869 USNO report, TS & JD Negus Nos. 599, 772, 1097, 1275, 1276, 1281, 1287, 1300, 1316, 1317, 1319 are noted.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer It may be worth noting that the Naval Commander who wrote the 1869 report for the USNO specifically refers to the firms chronometers as being from "TS & JD Negus" - so I don't know that dials were marked that way or not at the time, but they were known as "TS & JD" by at least July of 1869.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Dave, Sometimes you have to be careful with single source information. Look at your own postings. You have Negus chronometers 1026 and 1175 that are marked T.S.& J.D. on their dials and they date circa.1860. (Look at your 1869 list chronometer numbers all the way to the 1319 range) They, 1026 and 1175, are certainly in the pre or very early Civil War range. Now look at your directory information. The name change doesn't occur until 1873. So they both cannot be correct? More than likely the publisher of the directory just didn't change the type set on the listing? I would think the address information would be the more accurate.The fact that we have several dials signed T.S.& J.D. on pre 1873 chronometers I think gives us better evidence of the date of name change. If it were only one or two dials we could consider they were changed or upgraded but it's a lot more dials than that. In a Bulletin article I helped write we had a rule we wouldn't print any change, to published information, unless we found at least two reliable sources supporting the change. Take your time and your doing a good job. You did a much better job with the directories than I could.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Thanks, and agreed Burt. That's why I posted those tidbits - because they show the firm was known as TS & JD by 1869, and that the directory name wasn't changed (in print) until 1873. More digging may be necessary ...
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer A short bio of the company from The Jewelers' Circular. v.78 no.1 1919 Feb-Apr., is not very helpful. It says they adopted the name "TS & JD Negus" in 1869, which at least coincides with the USNO reports' use of the name in July of 1869, but does not explain earlier clocks with that dial signature - unless the earlier clocks got new dials later on? And it states that they moved to 140 Water St. "45 years ago" (which would be 1873-74) but we see directory listings at that address starting in 1869. And their data apparently was supplied by 3rd and 4th generation Negus's still working at the firm in 1919 ... the journey continues!
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer 1848 - not listed in the Doggett's NYC Directory, 1848-1849 1849 - listed as Thomas S. Negus, Chronometers, at 84 Wall St. (Doggett's NYC Directory, 1849-1850) 1850 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 84 Wall St. 1852 - listed as Thomas S. Negus, chronometers. at 100 Wall St. 1856 (as of May 1, 1857) - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 100 Wall St. 1857 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 100 Wall St. 1868 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 100 Wall St. 1869 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 140 Water St. 1872 - listed as TS Negus & Co. at 140 Water St. 1873 - listed as TS & JD Negus at 140 Water St.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Hi Bart, so far the Negus company lineage looks as follows: started 1848 or 1849 Thomas S. Negus (several company histories dated 1885, 1919, 1980, etc., differ on the start date - note that the earliest bio from 1885 gives an 1849 start date) 1849 Thomas S. Negus & Co. 84 Wall St. (from Doggett's NYC Directory) 1850 Thomas S. Negus & Co. 84 Wall St. (from Doggett's NYC Directory) 1851 Thomas S. Negus & Co. 100 Wall St. (from Doggett's NYC Directory) 1869 TS & JD Negus 140 Water St. (from US Naval Observatory report citation, and Trow's NYC Directory, and 1919 Jewelers Circular bio) 1931 TS & JD Negus 69 Pearl St. (from John S. Negus obit, 1944) I believe I also have enough detail to create a numbering dating list through about 1903, but that will take more time to sift through ...
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Dave, I think if you put a circa. in front of that 1848 date, the other dates and locations seem to line up pretty well. Good work. Certainly better than what was generally know before and more clear and accurate information for collectors to utilize. I don't expect all of us to place the importance of company historical information to their collections as we do but I feel it enhances the collecting experience. The opportunity to find other important information is always present when doing this type of research. I also think historical facts and dating a timepiece is fun and sometimes can answer those questions we only guessed at in the past. Consider how much value can be added to a timepiece with historical or important providence? I was impressed that so many, 98 members as of your last post, have viewed this a "chronometer" thread. Maybe we have more of a following than we thought?
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Well here is the chronometer that got my interest in the Negus family business. It's Negus marine chronometer 1273 and It has a story. What a story! This chronometer was finished by the Negus brothers in early 1863 and submitted in the spring of that year to the United States Naval Observatory for testing and evaluation. Undergoing a six month trial and passing the evaluation the chronometer was accepted into Navy service and purchased by the observatory in September of 1863 for a sum of $250. This chronometer has a remarkable provenance and not only witnessed but was a active participant in making U.S. Naval and American history. I was able to chronicle only the first 62 years of its service but then the trail ran cold in 1925 when the reference material I was using ended. I have no doubt its service career continued into WWII and possibly even Korea. This "A Marine Chronometers Story" has been submitted for consideration as a NAWCC Bulletin article publication. It's a detailed account of the excellent service of this "first class chronometer" instrument to our Navy and Country in peacetime and in four wars. The American Civil War, The Spanish -American War, The Philippine- American War and WWI. Negus 1273 as a navigation instrument served on no less than 8 war ships and 1 armed service ship in both naval combat and support missions. This story will also answer many other questions about the U.S. Naval Observatory chronometer service. This truly exceptional and distinguished service continued as Negus 1273 was assigned to important Naval Observatory scientific and geographical mapping expeditions. I realize many of the boards readers are not NAWCC members so I intend to post some of the article here for a members preview and also for those readers who will not receive the Bulletin.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Burt, beautiful chronometer and box, and I'm looking forward to reading your article!
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Burt, impressive chronometer with an equally impressive history. You are so fortunate to have obtained its provenance. I echo Dave's desire to see it in the Bulletin. BTW, I love that dial! Paul
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Thank you, thank you and thank you! Early Negus chronometers were built on well designed and finished Lancashire frames having large jewels and very fine and highly polished pivots. Chronometer 1273 was no exception to that general rule. This movement is a full plate, five wheel, four pillar fuse with Earnshaw type spring detent escapement and Harrison maintaining power. The escapement utilizes a helical blued steel hairspring and has a bi-metallic balance wheel with two tapered steel arms.( balance is stopped or corked for the picture) I think for being 152 years old it shows its age very well. Not only was this chronometer well serviced and cared for by its maker and the N.O. it was once serviced by Wm Bond & Sons in 1865 when the ship it was assigned was in Boston.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer Are you kidding me? I used to want a model 21 hamilton, but now i've seen this.............it's straight up watch nerd porn. You can't go back to holding hands, the hamilton looks like the red headed step child to me now. CURSE YOU!!!
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer I'll take that as a complement and that you like it? I consider it a privilege to own this chronometer just for what it is but its story is what really puts it over the top. I don't want to give away the entire article but do want to share enough information about its service so that our readers can conclude for themselves and why I call it an "important" historically and horologically timepiece. Sometimes we hear that term applied to a watch or clock ,especially when its up for sale , and then feel let down a bit when the true or whole story is revealed. I don't believe that will be the case with the Negus. PS: The Hamilton 21 is probably the best marine box chronometer ever made in general. That's what George Daniels thought anyway.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer I still want a hamilton 21, believe me. Only because I know i'll never have one one of those! You're a lucky dude.
Re: Negus Marine Chromometer I'll take the Negus ... AND the model 21! Or is that just legal in Utah?
