Need some help with a Burlington 21 jewel

Discussion in 'Watch Repair' started by Paul Raposo, Sep 8, 2016.

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  1. Paul Raposo

    Paul Raposo Registered User

    Nov 4, 2005
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    I bought a Burlington 21 jewel watch a few years ago and had it serviced. When I got it back it was gaining about 5 seconds a day which was fine. I don't use it very often but would wind it once a month.

    Over the years it's drifted a bit and was currently running +30 seconds per day.

    I wound the watch and using the eccentric screw turned it counter clockwise a 1/4 turn, then set the watch and left it dial up over night.

    This morning I was expecting to see that the movement had gained less than 30 seconds but it had actually gained 40 seconds.

    I thought this was a right hand screw and turning the screw counter clockwise would slow the movement down not speed it up.
     
  2. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

    Apr 15, 2005
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    Hey Paul.

    I'm looking for info on my Burlington too. What I am finding out is that in reality it's an Illinois watch. Not sure if Burlington was a sub-division or what of Illinois watch company, but you might find out more info on what your seeking. I suppose though it's just a matter of turning the screw one way or the other for yours.

    For mine I need a winding pinion and I think a crown wheel.

    Here is info link on Burlington watches
    http://www.pocketwatchrepair.com/histories/burlington.html

    RJ
     
  3. Dave Coatsworth

    Dave Coatsworth Forums Administrator
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    Feb 11, 2005
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    There's also an encyclopedia article: https://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Burlington_Watch_Co

    As for adjusting, visualizing what is happening will help determine the correct direction. You want to effectively shorten the hairspring to speed up the watch and, conversely, lengthen it to slow the watch. The regulator pins to this. So, look at which way the regulator pins are moving when you turn the adjusting screw. If they are moving toward the end of the hairspring, you are going to slow the watch. Toward the center of the hairspring, and you're speeding the watch up.
     
  4. Paul Raposo

    Paul Raposo Registered User

    Nov 4, 2005
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    Hi RJ, thanks for that link. Looking online I did find the connection between Illinois and Burlington, Burlington being the direct mail order arm of Illinois. My watch is the more common 21 jewel 16 size model 9. Years ago I passed on one of the Sangamo grade Burlingtons because I didn't know what it really was.

    As for parts for your watch, fortunately these are so common you should be able to find what you need online.

    That's a good tip Dave, thank you. I made an assumption about what direction to turn the screw and it might have been wrong.
     
  5. Paul Raposo

    Paul Raposo Registered User

    Nov 4, 2005
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    Yesterday I decided to move the regulator back to the original position, and this afternoon the watch was once again running +30.

    Turning the screw counter clockwise moves the index pins towards the stud which of course shortens the hairspring, but makes the movement run faster.

    Turning the screw clockwise and moving the index pins away from the stud and lengthening the hairspring makes it run slower.

    I'm a bit confused by this.

    I'm going to leave it pendant up and see what happens.
     
  6. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

    Apr 20, 2013
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    Hello Paul!

    No, moving the regulator pins closer to the stud will effectively lengthen the hairspring and slow the rate of the escapement. And moving them further away from the stud will shorten the working lenght and thereby increase the rate.

    It's the length of the spiral that matters. It's the relation between mass and diameter of the balance (inertia) and length and dimensions of the hairspring that determines the rate. The regulator pins will act as a stand in stud (with some other qualities as you can adjust the distance between them) and moving them closer to the hairspring collet along the length of the spring will shorten the active length of the spring.

    Hope this makes sense.

    Best
    Karl
     
  7. Paul Raposo

    Paul Raposo Registered User

    Nov 4, 2005
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    Hi Karl. Ok I was mistaken and seem to have it wrong. I'm going to let the mainspring run down and move the regulator and then wind it up and see what happens.
     
  8. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

    Apr 15, 2005
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    Yep, the length of the hairspring starts from the center collet that connects the hairspring to the balance wheel and the other end is effectively between the regulator pins.

    You may wonder why the end is not where the terminal stud is? Or why even have regulator pins?

    The weight of the balance wheel and the strength of the hairspring has an exact location to produce the correct back and forth speed.

    When a hairspring is mated to a specific balance wheel (they all weigh somewhat a little different) the hairspring's excess coils are cut away to the near point of getting the right "vibration" (or back and forth speed).

    Typically 1,800 beats per hour is what most pocket watches do. A mated balance wheel and hairspring are said to have been "vibrated".

    The stud provides a fixed termination point so the hairspring stays stationary. The regulation pins are the fine tuning.

    When a watch has been vibrated well the regulator indicator should be dead center. But in the practical world nothing is always perfect, so some off of center is acceptable. When you see a regulator indicator swung way over to fast or slow, this is an indicator that the spring needs to be re-vibrated to the balance wheel again.

    Often you will see some excess hairspring past the termination stud, this is a good thing. For if you have to have the hairspring vibrated again it may need to use the excess.

    But think in terms of reason. What would have caused this? With your issue of so many seconds off per the day I think I would be ok with a watch that is on the short side of a 200 year hill.

    There are other issues such as cleaning/servicing etc. An under powered watch will run fast. This could be due to mainspring strength weakening, power being robbed from lack of servicing...

    To me a movement that moves slow (good balance amplitude) is a good thing. Good balance amplitude is where the balance is turning back and forth with large degree of turn.

    The escapement action is where the balance wheel pushes the lever back and forth and releases the teeth of the escape wheel one tooth at a time. So you get the tick-tock.

    So if you think about it, A balance that swings wide is spending more time out of the escapement action then a balance that hardly turns and just manages to flick the escapement back and forth.

    It can be an optical illusion, but when a balance wheel spins back and forth really fast the escapement is going slower.
    But a poor acting balance that hardly turns any degrees (1/4 turn or less) runs faster because it spends more time interacting with the escapement.

    A good sign is good amplitude. Large swings and fast. Something more like 3/4 of a turn per swing.

    When you come to conclusion that the amplitude is good that covers allot of ground. The only thing left is the balance/hairspring.

    Think in terms of likely. It is very likely that your watch has original balance and hairspring and that it was factory vibrated.

    So the likelihood that you need to vibrate your spring again is probably null.

    More than likely it needs to be serviced.

    RJ
     
  9. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

    Mar 14, 2008
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    Just a quick note: Moving the regulator closer to the stud can sometimes result in a faster movement. (And vice versa!) This can happen if the first coil of the hairspring is not correctly curved. Consider a hairspring in the center of the pins at start. When the regulator is moved to "slower", the uneven hairspring is touching one of the pins... thus shortening its effective length of the hairspring and the movement speeds up.
     
  10. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Paul,

    Moving the index pins towards the stud will increase the effective length of the hairspring . . .

    I think RJ meant to type 18,000 bph.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  11. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

    Apr 20, 2013
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    Skutt makes a good point. An incorrectly shaped terminal curve, where the spring is always forced against one regulator pin, can behave in reverse to what you'd expect.

    There is no need to wait for
    the watch to run down before adjusting the rate. It
    will however give you an opportunity to check if the hairspring is centered between the pins when at rest.
     
  12. Paul Raposo

    Paul Raposo Registered User

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    Lots of great posts here, thank you everyone :thumb:

    Even though I don't use the watch regularly I think it might be a good idea to take it to Shane Ede and let him look it over and see if it needs to be serviced again or at the very least look at the timekeeping and sort it out.
     
  13. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

    Apr 15, 2005
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    Hey Graham. Yep,, oops forgot a zero. Hey I'm still working on the fusee will be posting more on that.


     

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