Need info on my Seth Thomas

[LJballer]

Hi, this seth thomas is ser#201286. need to know any ifo on it- jewels, model,..., thanks
Luke

 

[Kent]

Luke:

Seth Thomas assigned the serial numbers 200,001 - 400,00 solely to their 18-size, model 5 - a full plate, open face movement. The low serial number (within that range) on your movement indicates that it was probably built within a year or so after the model 5 was introduced, approximately 1895.

A look at this [colour=red]1896 A.C. Becken Catalog Excerpt, Page 10[/colour] tells us a bit about it. Since you have a gilt movement, with pressed in top plate jewels (i.e., they are not screwed in jewel settings - see the cut for the 21-jewel Maiden Lane grade), it is most likely an 11-jewel movement. That would make it a grade No. 58 (most likely).

Good luck,

 

[Tom McIntyre]

It is either an 11 or 15J Seth Thomas Model 5. It looks odd without the whiplash spring. Are there a couple of holes in the balance cock on the side near the center?

Here is a bit higher grade of the same model.

 

[LJballer]

Tom, definately not. I looked at the watch you put up and see what you mean. there are no screw holes there though. so what does this mean? thanks
Luke

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Well, Seth Thomas was a little wierd, but the nub on the regulator looks wrong and I would suspect that it has been replaced at some time. However, I have not looked at any other examples of this grade, so who knows what is correct?

Maybe Kent can post a picture.

 

[rrwatch]

The Seth Thomas Model 5 was made in a wide vareity of grades and jewel counts, from very plain gilt 7 jewel versions to the tu-tone 24 and 25 jewel Maiden Lane movements. The 7 and 11 jewel movements usually did not have a micrometer regulator.

 

[LJballer]

hmmmmm, odd though if yours is the usual nub. mine doesn't have the holes to ever of had that one though. Wonder if there are some other variations.

 

[Norman Bliss]

Kent, thanks for posting the catalog cut, it helps with a PL Seth Thomas I just bought. I think the screwed jewel settings indicate 15 jewels. The movement is damaskeened and gilt, so would you think it's a 59 or 159? I'm assuming it's a 159. SN is 207309, which Shugart's list gives as 1889. Do you have a better approximation?

Luke, note this is also a Private Label, for a (I assume) a jeweler in a town just north of Thomaston where the watch was made. I'm going to have fun researching F.B. Catlin.

 

[Kent]

...
Maybe Kent can post a picture.

Sorry Tom, I'm a little weak on low jewel Seth Thomas and the book Seth Thomas Watches, Chris H. Bailey, American Clock & Watch Museum, Inc., Bristol, CT, 1981 (a copy may be available on loan by mail to members from the [colour=red]NAWCC Library[/colour]) is very unclear in the 1895-1903 era. However, there are several indications in the book that Seth Thomas may have used the same regulator arm (with a stud for the whipspring) even though there was no whipspring.

A reproduction of a 1904, model 5 parts list shows that same arm as part #354 - Regulator, for breguet (sic) hairspring and lists (without a picture) part #353 - Regulator, for flat hairspring. Although the catalog excerpt listing the grade No. 58, linked to above, doesn't mention a Breguet hairspring, it may have one. I can't tell from Luke's picture. Luke - does your movement have an overcoil hairspring?

Later catalogs show a short regulator arm over the balance cock on low jewel watches, but Luke's movement has a regulator scale on the top plate, so these may use part #353 - Regulator, for flat hairspring.

I guess we'll have to wait for somebody who has a similar, low serial number model 5, to report it their watch also has that stud on the regulator arm.

 

[LJballer]

Iwish I knew. How can I tell what type of hairspring it has? I'll be happy to let you know if I can figure it out.
Luke

 

[Kent]

Very nice watch Norm! I think that it is a gussied up grade No. 159, it sure looks like it is a 15-jewel, gilded, nickel damaskeened movement. I don't believe that the model 5 was introduced until the early-to-mid-1890s. With a serial number of 207309, I'd put it in the mid-to-late 1890s.

Is the dial also marked "F.B. Catlin, Winsted, Conn."?

Edited to ask about the dial.

 

[Kent]

Luke:

Look edge on to the movement. If the the outer coil of the hairspring rises up and crosses over the other coils, then it is a Breguet (or overcoil) hairspring. If all of the coils are in the same plane, then it is a flat hairspring.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Luke, the easiest way for a novice to look for the overcoil is to note the position on the regulator arm of the regulator pins that stick down and control the hairspring. On a Breguet overcoil, they will be well inside the circle of the coils. On a flat hairspring they will be at the outer diameter. On your watch it looks like they are at the outer diameter and therefore, the hairspring is flat.

 

[Norman Bliss]

Thanks Kent, helps a lot. Don't know if it was adjusted to positions, but it's happy in four. Keeps very good time, but probably should get a cleaning soon. I'll be taking it over to the American Watch & Clock Museum in Bristol, maybe Chris will be able to tell me something. I'll ask about Luke's watch too.

Norman

 

[LJballer]

From what I see, it is an overcoil(Breguet). I see the end that rises up, goes through the arm and then goes to the screw. It is signifigantly higher than the others. so, agin- what does this mean now?LOL
Luke

 

[Norman Bliss]

Kent, dial is marked "F.B. Catlin Special". Case is great but not original.

 

[Kent]

Thanks Norman!

Here's a good excuse to bring out one of my model 5s, a grade [colour=red]No. 382[/colour].

Edited to put up link to No. 382.

 

[Norman Bliss]

Pretty!

 

[beta21]

Luke, I'm rather convinced your watch has a flat hair spring, not a Breguet one.
If you look closely at the hairspring stud holder on the cock, it is longer than the ones on the other pics in this thread. This enables the stud to come further away from the centre of the hairspring, just as it would be on a flat spring. Flat springs were often used on lesser grades and Breguet ones on better grades.

Peter

 

[LJballer]

What do you guys think of this one that I found on ebay today? looks like mine.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

I am pretty sure I can see the empty holes in the balance cock on this one. It is missing its whiplash spring and regulator screw. Also the two little dots on the regulator arm are very close to the balance cock.

This one does have the Breguet hairspring unless it has been replaced with a flat one.

 

[Kent]

Luke:

This is somewhat different from your watch.

1. It has nickel plates, not gilt plates.
2. It has screw-down jewel settings in the top plate.
3. You can see the two holes in the balance cock where the whipspring used to be fastened down.

Kent

 

[Kent]

Norman:

It got pretty late last night and I didn't get to tell you that our data base has serial number 208066, reported as also having a gold damaskeening pattern. The movement is marked "H.R. Woodward Norwich, Conn. - 15 Jewels"

 

[LJballer]

Kent,
I see the holes now. I thought they were part of the pattern.
Luke

 

[Norman Bliss]

Thanks Kent, sounds a lot like mine. Norwich is just up the road a bit. For obvious reasons I'd love to find a private label from Bliss Jewelers of Norwich.

Norman

 

[Norman Bliss]

The American Watch & Clock Museum in Bristol CT has quite a display of Seth Thomas watches, so I was able to gather some further information.

Grade 58 SN 202,286, said to be made in 1895, looks like Luke's, and has the stub on the regulator lever. A Grade 47 from c. 1901 has no stub on the regulator.

Grade 159, said to be made in 1895, has a presentation engraved on the case saying it was presented on Dec. 12, 1895, pretty much confirming 1895 as a build date for Luke's watch, and probably putting mine closer to 1896.

Interestingly, every Mod. 5 watch displayed had a different damaskeening pattern, even in the same grade. There were three gr. 159s, two with NI plates and different patterns, and one (from 1900), SN 286,549, that was private labeled 'The Workman's Friend, Siegel Bros. Boston', which is gilt over nickel plates, and the damaskeening, which is much simpler than mine, was done after gilding, so it cuts through the gold to the nickel, making it a tu-tone.

Retail prices for the movements only were given as $10.00 for the gr. 58 & $12.00 for the 159.

Norman

 

[John Pavlik]

Norman,

Is here is an example that is close in serial number.. How does the demaskeen compare ??

 

[Norman Bliss]

That's it, John.

Norman

 

[1Poet]

I don't mean to hi jack this thread, but I am new to this and am not sure how to start a new thread. Please excuse my newness. I, too, have a Seth Thomas, that I would appreciate help identifying. It appears to be a Maiden Lane, 17 jewels, s/n 232xxx?, placing it about 1889, I think.
However, this watch has an open face and a open back, meaning a crystal on both sides. It is is fantastic condition with no visible cracks on the face and the inside (back) is ornate with gold lettering. I will try and get a picture of it. What else do you need to help me identify this watch? Thanks and, again, please excuse my lack of knowledge on proper etiquette. Shelby Howell

 

[Kent]

Hi Shelby:

Welcome to the NAWCC American Pocket Watch Message Board!

Judging by the serial number, your watch movement is a Seth Thomas model 5. These were introduced in about 1895. You may be interested in the Seth Thomas Clock Co. Encyclopedia article and especially in the message board thread Seth Thomas Maiden Lane 25J (the 17-jewel Maiden Lane is discussed towards the end of the thread).

We're waiting to see your pictures,

 

[Wynot]

Hi Shelby:

Welcome to the NAWCC American Pocket Watch Message Board!

Judging by the serial number, your watch movement is a Seth Thomas model 5. These were introduced in about 1895. You may be interested in the Seth Thomas Clock Co. Encyclopedia article and especially in the message board thread Seth Thomas Maiden Lane 25J (the 17-jewel Maiden Lane is discussed towards the end of the thread).

We're waiting to see your pictures,

Hi Kent,
I'm replying to this thread as you requested. I won this watch in an online auction last night and started researching it. The dial and movement are both marked Workingman's Friend Siegel Bros. Boston Mass. This thread leads me to believe it is a Private Label Seth Thomas Grade 159 Mod 5 in an Illinois Hercules case. Here are the auction pictures. -Rod

 

[musicguy]

Seth Thomas Pocket Watch: Serial Number 286573 (Grade 159)





Rob

 

[Kent]

Rod:

You.ye got a interesting watch, although its a shame about the dial.

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to show it to us.

 

[Wynot]

Rod:

You.ye got a interesting watch, although its a shame about the dial.

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to show it to us.

It is a shame about the dial but I am getting an Illinois Hercules case in relatively decent condition and learned something about Seth Thomas movements I didn't know. I'd call that a win. And if this can add to your project, even better. Thanks!

 

[Joe Blossic]

learned something about Seth Thomas movements

Rod, I think you will find a lot of useful info on Seth Thomas at Seth Thomas Research
Joe

 

[Wynot]

Rod, I think you will find a lot of useful info on Seth Thomas at Seth Thomas Research
Joe

Thank you!

 

[Wynot]

It is a shame about the dial but I am getting an Illinois Hercules case in relatively decent condition and learned something about Seth Thomas movements I didn't know. I'd call that a win. And if this can add to your project, even better. Thanks!

Got the watch today and, as suspected, the movement has a few issues. What I didn't expect was an issue with the case. The case is a tip out where the square end of the winding stem is supposed to go into a square hole in the movement. The square stem end is sheered off and needs to be replaced. Does anybody know how to disassemble the crown/stem assembly? Thanks. PS Since I was there, I hit the case with a little silver polish and this is the result.

 

[darrahg]

Hold the remaining square end with needle nose pliers and then turn the crown counter clockwise. Push the stem out toward the interior of the case once the crown is off.

The stem in this type of case always needs to be pulled out when lifting the movement case frame or guess what happens, a broken stem.

 

[Wynot]

Hold the remaining square end with needle nose pliers and then turn the crown counter clockwise. Push the stem out toward the interior of the case once the crown is off.

The stem in this type of case always needs to be pulled out when lifting the movement case frame or guess what happens, a broken stem.

Success!! Thank you very much! Do you know if these are available somewhere or am I looking at a rebuild?

 

[darrahg]

You might be successful finding one if you contact someone that repairs vintage/antique watches or sells parts for them. An example would be someone like (Dave's Watch Parts and Tools/). It can be made if you have a jeweler's lathe and some stock plus a die for making threads. It's a lot of work for such a small part but sometimes that is the best one can do. Sometimes a collector that has bulk parts will chime in and help you out. You might want to consider posting your problem in the Watch Repair section as you might get additional responses.

Good Luck!

 

[Wynot]

You might be successful finding one if you contact someone that repairs vintage/antique watches or sells parts for them. An example would be someone like (Dave's Watch Parts and Tools/). It can be made if you have a jeweler's lathe and some stock plus a die for making threads. It's a lot of work for such a small part but sometimes that is the best one can do. Sometimes a collector that has bulk parts will chime in and help you out. You might want to consider posting your problem in the Watch Repair section as you might get additional responses.

Good Luck!

Thanks! I've reached out to Dave's so, we'll see what happens. I had posted in the Parts Wanted Forum with no results so far.

 

[Wynot]

Thanks! I've reached out to Dave's so, we'll see what happens. I had posted in the Parts Wanted Forum with no results so far.

Just an update. Dave found a match for my broken stem. It arrived today and was just what I needed. Thanks again for the referral.