Need info on 18k Swiss Fake MJ Tobias

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Spartcom5, Aug 23, 2019.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. Spartcom5

    Spartcom5 Registered User

    Feb 1, 2016
    165
    27
    28
    Country Flag:
    Bought this recently and don't know much about it. I believe it to be a nice Swiss Fake of MJ Tobias. It is in running order. What does full jeweled mean? 13 jewels? Also what does this date to? I see similar examples claiming 1850s? If anyone can provide any info I would be greatly appreciative. Also, what would be some nice replacement hands for a piece like this?
    20190823_171559_resized.jpg 20190823_174515_resized.jpg 20190823_190712_resized.jpg 20190823_190745_resized.jpg 20190823_190755_resized.jpg 20190823_190912_resized.jpg
     
  2. richiec

    richiec Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 24, 2007
    6,356
    293
    83
    Male
    automotive warranty inspector
    Brick, Ocean, NJ
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    From my experience, fully jeweled usually meant 15 jewels but without being able to see the upper plate, it may or may not have 15, could only have 11. The dial looks to be or have silver in it based on the tarnish. I would date it to the mid 1800's, 1840-60.
     
  3. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,259
    1,044
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Spartcom5,

    It would probably have had blue steel 'moon' pattern hands originally, commonly called Breguet hands, although he didn't originate the design.

    Regards

    Graham
     
  4. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 16, 2008
    10,925
    249
    63
    UK
    Country Flag:
    In my experience "fully jewelled" means no more than "it has some jewels". In other words it has no technical meaning, it just sounds good :rolleyes:

    I wouldn't argue with a date in the 1850s, but I would probably believe 10 years later than that - if only because the balance weel has compensating screws.
     
  5. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,259
    1,044
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Martin,

    Which are mostly for show because the three-spoked balance wheel is monometallic and uncut, and thus not compensating.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  6. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 16, 2008
    10,925
    249
    63
    UK
    Country Flag:
    Indeed, but the mere fact that the maker wanted to show compensating screws suggests the slightly later date to me.
     
  7. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,259
    1,044
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Martin,

    By the 1850s, screwed compensated balances had already been in use on good quality work for many decades.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  8. Spartcom5

    Spartcom5 Registered User

    Feb 1, 2016
    165
    27
    28
    Country Flag:
    Where would this have been sold back in the day brand new? Was it for the U.S. market?
     
  9. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,259
    1,044
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Spartcom5,

    Not necessarily for the US specifically, but probably for an English-speaking region, which does narrow it down somewhat.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  10. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

    Dec 12, 2010
    1,718
    497
    83
    Sosnowiec, Poland
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I'm sorry to differ, but I think the screws were not for show. I think they were used to time and poise the balance as well and I'd say they were mounted for this purpose, not to make the balance look 'compensated'. For the same reason they were used in most monometallic balances until like 1940s or 50s...

    Just a thought...

    And... a very nice watch, BTW :)
     
  11. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,259
    1,044
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Paul,

    If they were used for timing and poising, why are there no alternative holes for them so that they can be moved to the correct position in the rim to bring it to static poise, why are they all fully inserted and rarely if ever unscrewed to adjust timing, and why in many cases are they not screws at all but just studs press fitted in the rim?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  12. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

    Dec 12, 2010
    1,718
    497
    83
    Sosnowiec, Poland
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Everything depends on the grade, I suppose. It might be like with cap jewels - some are functional, some are not. Still - most more modern watches also don't have alternative positions for the screws and yet - I can't believe they were just for decoration in all these watches through so many decades of watchmaking ;)
     
  13. Spartcom5

    Spartcom5 Registered User

    Feb 1, 2016
    165
    27
    28
    Country Flag:
    Would the crystal on this originally have been glass? I'm assuming it would but I just want to make sure before replacing the plastic one.

    Thanks for the help on this one, I'll post a picture when I find new hands for it.
     
  14. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

    Dec 12, 2010
    1,718
    497
    83
    Sosnowiec, Poland
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Obviously - there were no plastic crystals back then :)
     
  15. Spartcom5

    Spartcom5 Registered User

    Feb 1, 2016
    165
    27
    28
    Country Flag:
    The crystal is actually glass of some sort. Definitely not plastic, could be original? I'm not sure. Also. When recementing the crystal back into place to insure a secure fit the bezel was so completely thin the gold started bending. I couldnt believe how thin the gold was on this !!
     
  16. Spartcom5

    Spartcom5 Registered User

    Feb 1, 2016
    165
    27
    28
    Country Flag:
    Well I got some nice hands fitted to the watch but the crystal won't set back in. The bezel is so darn thin that it got misshapen a tad and now the crystal keeps popping back out. I really want rid of this thing at the moment.
     
  17. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,720
    1,280
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I believe the screws in these balances were similar to the underside alterations in solid flat balances. Sometimes you see some small removals on these also. They did not need to be very good at their purpose. Any poise is better than none.
     

Share This Page