Need help with Gilbert dual-layer movement!

[Schmeltzer]

I need help understanding why my hammer on a dual-layer Gilbert (round frame, resembling a ship's clock or French movement) will not strike without encountering the gathering pallet shaft. Does anyone know if the strike spring mounts clockwise or counter-clockwise when viewing the movement from the rear?

My thanks!

 

[shutterbug]

Schmeltzer - can you post a picture for us? I'm trying to visualize what you have but am quite getting a clear view

 

[horologintex]

I think I have encountered the same Gilbert movement. What a mess. Bad repivoting jobs. Missing a pin on the gathering pallet. Loose clicks. Mangled springs. And all on a poorly designed movement... Unfortunately, the case is really nice, so I can't tell the customer it's a piece of junk... Anyway, my question is: Does anybody have a secret to getting the mainsprings back in once they are cleaned. Everything is so tight, spring retainers won't fit - and the Time side spring sits in a quasi-barrel that is attached to the center plate. I'm attaching some pictures to help with identification.

Thanks!

 

[Tom Kloss]

Hi Schmeltzer

I haven't had of these go through my shop and, by the looks of it I hope I never do. But, can't you tell the winding directions of the springs by the orientation of the spring hook on the winding arbor.

T.J. Kloss

 

[itbme1987]

do the quasi barrel parts slip on and off the posts?, would getting some strong wire and wrapping it around the top exposed part of the spring and the barrel work? then it would atleast compress the mainspring enough so you can assemble the gears without it pressing but thin enough so when your done just undo the wires and pull them out. Im curious about this since i have a similar gilbert in a crystal regulator case, but i had a repair shop handle it for me and im not sure how they handled the springs.

 

[Bill V]

I restored a clock with this type of arrangement several years ago. I think I remember it being a Gilbert, but it was some time ago, and I'm not really sure.

I used large heavy duty zip ties to hold the springs for assembly (wire would also work fine), and the spring retainer (quasi-barrel) on the one I repaired was removable.

Bill

 

[shutterbug]

I like the wire idea. I'd be a bit uneasy with a zip tie, but know many use them successfully.

 

[David B Pendley]

Radiator hose clamps...are saver than zip ties...just plan ahead to get the screw out of the way during assembly.

 

[horologintex]

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions!
1) I was able to use wire to secure the strike spring before removing the back plate. It's a fairly weak spring, so that wasn't a problem.
2) However, the time spring is much stronger. It is also a hole end, rather than a loop end, so the clearance when the hole slips over the barrel hook is minimal to non-existent. Since the "barrel" is stationary, the main wheel is attached to the arbor and a spring-winding collar cannot fit over both the main wheel and the spring. Sooooooo, I've removed the winding arbor, and will try using a "dummy" winding arbor with my spring winder to get the spring out. I think that the "barrel" is removable for cleaning purposes, but I'm not sure that it's sturdy enough to hold the spring without the extra support of the center plate.

I'll post some more pictures after I get the thing apart, so y'all can see what an interesting contraption this is...

 

[horologintex]

Here are some additional photos to help illuminate the situation...

They are:
1) Middle plate and quasi spring barrel
2) Spring hook inside quasi barrel
3) Middle plate and quasi spring barrel assembled

 

[Allan Wolff]

Several years ago, someone did an informal poll on this message board about their least favorite movement to work on. This movement was very near the top, if not at the top. I own one that is in a crystal regulator case and have had it apart more times than I care to admit.

Here is how I handle the time mainspring. If the spring is still in the movement wind it up just enough so there is a small gap between the spring and the quasi-barrel. Thread a piece of wire (I use 17 gauge electric fence wire) through the hole in the end of the spring, then feed it around the spring and tie the ends together. The spring will tend to pull the arbor towards the barrel hook and the tighter the spring is wound the greater the pull. This is why we do not wind it any more than necessary or you will get a big jolt when the plates are separated and it will be more difficult to re-assemble. If the spring is already out of the movement, some experimentation will be needed to find a suitable diameter to wind the spring with a spring winder.

Here is a time saving tip. Leave the wire in place when re-assembling adjusting and testing the movement. Invariably, this finicky movement will need to be disassembled several more times before all the bugs are worked out. After the movement has proven to be stable, clip and remove the wire.
Good luck,
Allan