Need help with a Ham 992E(?)

Dbailey

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I just bought what I thought was a 992E because the seller and every database I checked before I bought it said it was. It's serial # is 2582731 which makes it one of the first run/first year 992e with the narrow stripe mvt. Has anyone known of a 992E without the marking under the balance or anywhere else on the mvt.?

DSCN1935.JPG
 

Rodney Leon

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Has anyone known of a 992E without the marking under the balance or anywhere else on the mvt.?
Here are a couple of photos of my first run 1930 and a grade: 992, 21 jewel Hamilton. I think someone might have replaced your pallet bridge at one time, as I never have seen a 992E without the Elinvar. Maybe someone else knows different.

992 Serial Number: 2352679, Grade: 992 Model: 2,
1930, 992E First run Movement Serial Number: 2581934

1926.jpg 1930.jpg
 

Dbailey

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Thanks Rodney...unless someone knows another explanation(which I'll wait and see a few more days) I should return this watch, as I bought it to resell and without the Elinvar marking, I doubt I will get what I should...
 

terry hall

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the pallet bridge is serialized to the movement via a stamped number sequence

the balance wheel is serialized to the movement but easily faked.

your balance wheel looks like a solid elinvar balance, but i did just a cursory look-see in the low resolution image.

there ARE a limited number of examples observed over the years in that 'first run' that ARE regular 992movements. the factory memos bear this out, as they state some were converted to elinvar, and then returned to 992 configuration, but no numbers are stated.
the elinvar papers are numerous and give some interesting insite as to what was happening inside of Hamilton.

btw you can post high resolution images here, you don't have to pare them down to a small size....
 

Rodney Leon

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Has anyone known of a 992E without the marking under the balance or anywhere else on the mvt.?
your balance wheel looks like a solid elinvar balance, but i did just a cursory look-see in the low resolution image.
Good points Terry I am glad you replied as well. I was hoping someone with more knowledge on Hamiltons than me would have a say. I should have posted the movement without it running so Dbailey could see the balance as well as the pallet bridge to compare you can see the cut balance in the 992 image and solid in the 992E, So you can compare it to yours.

992 balance.jpg 992E Balance.jpg
 

Dbailey

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Thanks Terry, and yes, Rodney, there is a cut in my balance like your 992 pictured....thanks for that. I guess I have one of the scarce(how scarce I wish I knew)992 movements with a 992e serial number...maybe I'll keep it after all!
 

terry hall

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according to existing serial number lists...
the 'first run' of 992e goes from 2581001 to 2583900
not 'all' of these watches are 992e.

there is a subsequent run of watches, 2583901 to2584300 that are listed as 992L, and are some of the hardest examples to find...
ask Mike Chamelin.... we've looked a LONG time to only find a couple...

the next run 2584301 begins the wider stripe damaskeen, and elinvar... the pallet bridges on these also seem to be of a different font for the elinvar marking...

(research some of the older posts for image examples)

I guess I have one of the scarce(how scarce I wish I knew)992 movements with a 992e serial number..

you'll need to pull it down to verify under-plate serialization....
 

Dbailey

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Interesting Terry! I'll send a better pic soon but what do you make of the seeming fact that this movement's serial # lies outside of the serial number range of known 992Ls?

DSCN1937.JPG
 

terry hall

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IMHO it would benefit from a disassembly to check the components as stated above for serialization....

as the elinvar memos do not give specific serial numbers for movements that were returned to 992L at the factory, it seems to be an outside possibility.
 

Dbailey

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so, correct me if I'm wrong: I should see if the number under the pillar plate matches the serial # on the movement? And if it does, what conclusion can I draw?
 

terry hall

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the stamped number under the pallet bridge will be a partial match, probably last 4 or 5 digits.
if a match, then really good possibility the pallet bridge was matched up to the movement serial at the factory
the bottom of the balance arms should have full serial number hand-engraved... though the number "can' be eradicated and re-engraved.
 
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Dbailey

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the stamped number under the pallet bridge will be a partial match, probably last 4 or 5 digits.
if a match, then really good possibility the pallet bridge was matched up to the movement serial at the factory
the bottom of the balance arms should have full serial number hand-engraved... though the number "can' be eradicated and re-engraved.
I just got word back from my watchmaker that all the numbers on the movement match...so, that means it's a 992 movement with a first run 992E serial number in the database AND it's not listed in the serial number range of the 992L that are within the 992e database numbers...so, how much of an anomaly is it?
 

grtnev

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I just got word back from my watchmaker that all the numbers on the movement match...so, that means it's a 992 movement with a first run 992E serial number in the database AND it's not listed in the serial number range of the 992L that are within the 992e database numbers...so, how much of an anomaly is it?
Can you ask your watchmaker to take some pics?

Richard
 

Dbailey

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Can you ask your watchmaker to take some pics?

Richard
He just finished with a COA and the watch is back together and he's timing it now...he's in MO and I'm in PA and there is no reason for him to lie about it but thanks for your interest
 

musicguy

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and there is no reason for him to lie about it but thanks for your interest
It is not a question about trust:). Anytime there is a movement that
fits outside the known parameters the people who study them intently
want to see these type of photographs. There are different types
of collectors here, some are people who collect watches
and others who study them and create databases that record observations
and those who do both. :)

It's all good.


Rob
 
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Dbailey

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It is not a question about trust:). Anytime there is a movement that
fits outside the known parameters the people who study them intently
want to see these type of photographs. There are different types
of collectors here, some are people who collect watches
and others who study them and create databases that record observations
and those who do both. :)

It's all good.


Rob
I understand that and that's why I'm a member here, to be with those who I can learn from and I appreciate every comment or question. I'm just saying that I'm SURE this watch is what my watchmaker said it is: a 992 movement with a 992E serial number. I can ask another watchmaker to take pics after I get it back from where it is now if it is important to the database or if I ever need to prove it before selling, when that day comes...
 

Dbailey

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Dbailey

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So, it's no big deal I guess....at first, I thought about sending it back for a refund since I paid for a 992e and even messaged the seller that I might do that depending on what I found out about it. Then I thought it might be a factory error, or in any event, a scarce collector item so I went ahead and had it COAed, a new glass crystal installed and the case professionally polished. As you can see, the movement is virtually spotless, which is always a priority of mine, so.....I'll keep it until I sell it (down the road).
 

Dbailey

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I just saw elsewhere on the web that someone owns serial #2582729 which is marked elvinar and mine being #2582731, just the second watch after that one off the assembly line and doesn't have elvinar marked because it's a 992 instead...hmmm....that has to mean something
 

terry hall

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Thanks for the confirmation... and like others always like to 'see' the parts in question....

I would encourage you to borrow from NAWCC Library the "halligan files" and read with particular interest the factory memo(s) concerning the "elinvar situation" ... at about slide 283 or so in the version I saw....

the watch will always be 'of interest' cuz it is not what some predict it to be... but to quote one of NAWCC's established members.. 'the watch tells the story'....
 
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Dbailey

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So....it looks like a genuine factory 992 movement with a 992E serial number...
 

terry hall

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you can post them here at full size.unlike some places.. at their present size difficult to make out the details...
but yep
I "knew' it was completely possible from researching the memos and from numerous observations, though easily missed when not looking for it
 

Rhett Lucke

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I find the subject watch to be somewhat interesting, but not overly surprising and it certainly adds to the story of the transition from the Model 2 992 to the Model 3 992 (992E). As has been seen countless times, Hamilton was not at all diligent in finishing and shipping watches in the same sequence as their serial number. This resulted in some movements sitting in finishing inventory much longer than watches with later serial numbers.

Hamilton also seemed to be very adverse to writing off inventory. Rather than scrapping inventory, they would in many cases, upgrade the movement to the latest spec and/or discount out to one of their larger distributors.

Anomalies like the watches being discussed are a result of these inventory practices and many times the subject of rigorous debate.
 

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