Please ID this Clock American Need help to identify Movement

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by Dave T, Dec 17, 2018.

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  1. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Help me identify Grandfather movement. Customer called me to come and look at this clock. She said it has not run for at least 10 years. The case is huge compared to most. It's probably 8 foot tall, with a very large bonnet. I was surprised to see this movement inside. It's obviously a home made case with whatever this movement is.
    And so far, I don't know what it is. Haven't found any markings on it.
    Davis grandfather movement .jpg Davis grandfather movement 4.jpg Davis grandfather movement 3.jpg Davis grandfather movement 2.jpg Davis grandfather movement 1.jpg
     
  2. JTD

    JTD Registered User

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    A very unusual (to me) movement, with an escapement and pendulum hook arrangement that must be a characteristic of some manufacturer but I have not seen it before.

    I'm not so sure about the case being home made. It's not easy to see detail from the photo and the angle at which it is taken does make it seem rather out of proportion, but it may not be so in reality. If it is home made, then someone had some considerable cabinet-making skills.

    I hope someone can identify the movement - it is intriguing me!

    JTD
     
  3. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    The movement is by New Haven. Why do you think the case is home made? I can't tell from the picture myself; it is, however, not in Tran's New Haven book.
     
  4. JTD

    JTD Registered User

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    Thanks Steven, I knew someone would recognise it. It was probably obvious - I wish I knew more about American clocks.

    JTD
     
  5. Isaac

    Isaac Registered User

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    The "branching" cutout design on the back plate and front plate was something that New Haven did with their time and strike movements. The same relative movement design was used on all of their kitchen clocks, grandfather clocks, and Willcock chime clocks, albeit the wheel ratio for the timekeeping train were different because of different pendulum lengths.

    The case looks original to me, although the movement might have been replaced with the New Haven if there are empty mounting holes indicating that there was another movement installed. It also seems like the center finial is missing. If it is a homemade case, it looks really nice in my opinion.
     
  6. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    #6 Dave T, Dec 17, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
    Thanks guys, I thought it looked familiar, (the movement). But was just surprised to see it in this big case.
    As for the case, thoughts expressed are strictly my own. It is a very well made case. If it is home made it was very well done. That was my initial assumption, (that it was home made). Solid back panel from top to bottom with no access. Only way to get to the movement is through the front.
    It has what I think are machine screws holding the movement, two at the top through the (added on?) bracket, and two at the bottom. The dial is huge, and had only two of the seven required screws holding it in place. The two straight sided weights weigh about 6 3/4 lb. each and are suspended on ladder chain.
    Customer doesn't know how old it is, but think it dates way back. 100 years or so. The finish on the case looks a lot newer than that to me.
     
  7. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    #7 Dave T, Dec 17, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
    Another stupid question. This appears to be a deadbeat? with an upside down anchor. I've never seen this on a New Haven.
     
  8. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Does the EW move clockwise or counter clockwise? If clockwise, it is deadbeat; if CCW, then recoil.
     
  9. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Clockwise, and no recoil.
     
  10. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    honestly, that type of movement in a large grandfather clock seems very uncommon to me also. it is almost as if I can see the genesis from between the wars heavy German solid plate movements to this to what we have available today. or perhaps the new haven kitchen clock movements to this one. when I fist looked at your movement photos posted above, I could easily picture spring barrels in place of those chain driven winding arbors.

    I would guess this would have been toward the lower end of the price scale for its day?
     
  11. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    I agree with Mr. T here. A New Haven movement. What appears to me to be basically the same one appears in Tran's New Haven book, page 191, figure 721.

    The one cropped pic of the case provided is not helpful in its assessment. None the less, I too am not clear why it is concluded that the case is "obviously home made".

    See Tran's New Haven book, pages 186 through 191 and the figures therein. In the late 19th into the early 20th century New Haven offered some rather tall longcase clocks. I couldn't find an exact match, but similar. I suspect the case is factory made.

    Finally, about 1-2 years ago, I was offered a very similar if not identical rather tall New Haven longcase. The case was of decent quality so that movement was, well, a bit of a letdown. No, not that dream clock that I would have cut a hole in a ceiling for.

    Remember, this period was sort of the heart of that time when clocks like these, often referred to today as "hall clocks," and "colonial revival" styles in general were popular. Hall clocks were made by American, English, German, etc. companies. For a sense of their widespread production, see volume 1 of Tran's long case clock and regulator book (the New Haven clocks are covered on pages 227-336 in that publication). I suppose New Haven made a line for those on a budget. Looked good from the outside.

    I guess the form never really went away. How many requests have there been on the MB to "date and ID" later German clocks, Ridgeways from the '70s, etc.

    RM
     
  12. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks RM, That's very valuable information for us. I don't have the Tran's book. Wish I did. Would it be possible to post some photos from there?
    It's good to know that this clock is probably original to New Haven production.
    I've got it on a stand and it's running quite well, after a little oiling. Still filthy dirty and needs cleaning, but I want to be sure I know what I'm facing before I tear it down. And the bushings don't show much wear.
    I just counted the escape wheel teeth, 36 and it beats 60 x per minute. Nice slow ticker! Strikes properly on the hour and half hour.
     
  13. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Here is the picture of the movement RM refers to and, just to show the possibilities in height, a 1911 catalogue picture of the NH Sherbrooke, described as 95" tall. Yours, of course, is not the Sherbrooke, but perhaps the catalogue picture assumes the same movement.
    Hall Clock Mvmt..JPG Sherbrooke.JPG
     
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  14. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    funny... i'm working on a similar waterbury movement i bought when i was first starting out... the escape wheel front arbor goes through that little bridge, definitely a seconds clock that would have been in a larger wall clock or tall case clock, thin gears and plates but stable enough, chain driven.... as RM says, probably the way they all did it at a certain time...

    s-l1600-3.jpg
     
  15. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks for posting pictures, Steven. I'll print these for the customer. Sure she'll appreciate it.
     
  16. Isaac

    Isaac Registered User

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    As a side note, most of these clocks offered by New Haven could also be outfitted with the Willcock Westminster option for an additional $72 or ~$1700 in today's money (as the catalog illustration from Steve states). These would have an upgraded T&S mechanism with both solid front and back plates.
     
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  17. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Just found an Ithaca/New Haven here from 2013.
    Ithaca weight driven Grandfather clock.Aquired at auction.
    Pretty much the same clock with a little variation on the case. Althought this clock is 88". And the one I'm working on is 95". I see I'm missing the threaded thumbscrew for the tip of the leader where it protrudes through the pendulum. Wondered why it was threaded, now I know.
     
  18. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    The New Haven cases & dials were of superior quality compared to the Ithaca product.

    RM
     
  19. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks RM, I'm getting a new appreciation for this New Haven. Had it on a test stand for two days, and it's performing perfectly. Just tore it down and put it in the ultrasonic. I see a little bushing wear, but nothing else. It doesn't show any signs of every having been serviced.
     
  20. Isaac

    Isaac Registered User

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    Two of my New Haven time and strike movements very similar to this have never been bushed or needed bushings, just an oil change and of course the regular cleaning. The infamous round westminster movement New Haven made on the other hand is a different story :whistle:
     
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  21. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    I've got an old New Haven calendar clock I bought probably 40 years ago. Runs steady, no problems. Except for the minute hand is very loose and hard to keep in the correct position.
    And I've never cleaned it! It's on my agenda, like when I get a rountuit.
    New haven Standard Time 3.jpg
     
  22. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    #22 Dave T, Dec 20, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
    Clock is clean, lubed and running. Clock continues to strike and won't stop. Because the counthweel lever is hitting the top of every tooth on the counthweel. It's off about half a notch. Do I have to spread the plates to fix it? I'm sure I didn't bend the countwheel lever when I cleaned it, and don't want to bend it now.
     
  23. Isaac

    Isaac Registered User

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    Sounds like you have a timing issue, which would usually mean you'd have to split the plates so that you can adjust when the count wheel lever drops.
     
  24. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Yep, I was very careful to get the maintenance wheel and the warning pin lined up, but didn't carefully consider the countwheel. It's attached to the front plate. I'm thinking I might take the bottom end loose and rotate the wheel to align with the notch to allow the count lever to bottom out in an hour slot.
     
  25. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    This explains my problem, Thanks Willie! precisely! Count Wheel Basics
    (see the Common problem section)
    I knew as soon as I read it again, what I have to do to correct it.
    And it also confirms what I was thinking. Maybe I'm getting smarter? I doubt it.
     
  26. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Yeah, it sure could be the same. The ladder chain makes it pretty cool. Those are really hard to find a replacement for.
     

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