Need Help ID'ing Audemars Freres Wrist Watch

Discussion in 'Wrist Watches' started by Aftershock51, Feb 25, 2016.

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  1. Aftershock51

    Aftershock51 Registered User

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    Hello,
    I recently purchased this watch on eBay and I have no idea what it exactly is.


    The case is made by Fahy's and is guaranteed for 25 years and has a symbol of a medical staff with the two snakes wrapped around it. It looks similar to a trench watch, but is very small (about 24mm wide).


    The dial is very hard to read, but it looks like it says "Chione M" in cursive.


    The movement says "Audemars Freres Geneve". It is also stamped with "Swiss", "15 Jewels - 2 Adjustments", and "783". There is also a stamping that has been cut off by one of the gears.


    I was just wondering if anyone had any info on this and if it is related to Audemars Piguet.




    Thanks
     

    Attached Files:

  2. bobbee53

    bobbee53 Banned

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  3. Aftershock51

    Aftershock51 Registered User

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    Wow. Thank you for finding that!
     
  4. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    apparently (I surmise) this is probably a ladies pendant wach converted to gents wrist watch at some point. (note the winding configuration)
     
  5. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Something mighty strange.
    Its a hunter movement, yet the crown is at 12' o' clock! Why is that, its not a Lepine movement!
    Why would movement say Audermar, if not Audermar?

    I suspect dial is a replacement or something:???:
    Strange, no?
     
  6. bobbee53

    bobbee53 Banned

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    The crown is actually at 3 o'clock in the case and does not have sub seconds, that is how the crown is at 12 on the dial. :rolleyes:

    National Watch co. probably imported the Audemars Freres movement and cased it in the U.S. just like dozens of other watch companies and jobbers were doing at this time with imported Swiss movements.

    Fairly simple explanations for both of your concerns.
     
  7. bobbee53

    bobbee53 Banned

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    Here are some examples, so as to ease any disbelief.



    ILLINOIS WATCHES OCT 1917 PLAIN.jpg
     
  8. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    The movement is a Hunter movement.
    That "normally" has a crown at a 3 o 'clock position with 12 o 'clock at 12. o clock as opposed to a Lepine movement that has crown at 12 o'clock.
    This is movements now.

    Now why someone would take a Hunter movement that is made to have a crown at 3 o'clock and a 12 at 12 o' clock (like a normal conventional wristwatch) and fit it with crown and 12 at 3 o clock (so called offset crown) (like a Lepine movement)
    Makes me feel this watch is a complete Franken!
     
  9. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    These are not examples of "hunter" movements with offset dials.

    The OPs movement is a Hunter movement NOT a Lepine movement that would normally be see in an "offset" crown case.
    There is NO need to "offset" a 'Hunter' movement as the crown is already at 3 o' clock

    A
     
  10. bobbee53

    bobbee53 Banned

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    1-Just how do you ascertain that the ladies watches in the advert are not using the same sort of movement in the OP's watch? I'm not saying they do, but to say with certainty either way would require a crystal ball! :)

    2-What makes you so certain the OP's watch is not original? The movement is what it is, and as Jeff has already said, was probably originally meant for/used in a ladies pendant/chatelaine watch but then used in a wrist watch, just like those in the advert.

    This kind of set up is often seen in early types of w/w, even for those with sub-seconds, as with the early US ladies' w/w adverts.



    1913 gruen.jpg
     
  11. John Arrowood

    John Arrowood Registered User
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    Dumb and simple question: Maybe the dial has been rotated 90 degrees? How is it attached to the movement? There's no second hand so twelve on the dial could be anywhere, depending on it's attachment to the movement. Dial dots come to mind.
     
  12. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Not "dumb" at all.
    Probably what has been done, to turn a Hunter type movement in to a "Lepine" style wristwatch.

    Or a Franken
    A
     
  13. bobbee53

    bobbee53 Banned

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    I see dial feet (posts) being retained by dial screws, so dial is correct for movement.
     
  14. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    What type of movement is the OP watch using, Lepine or Hunter?
     
  15. bobbee53

    bobbee53 Banned

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    It is/was configured as a lepine. If the fourth wheel was fitted with a sub second, it would be a hunter.
    Pretty easy thing to do, I can't understand your difficulty in coming to grips with such a simple set up, it is quite basic.
     
  16. Larsson

    Larsson Registered User

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    I've learned something new here.
     
  17. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    The movement on the OP's watch is a HUNTER movement. End of story.
     
  18. bobbee53

    bobbee53 Banned

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    Perhaps someone who has actual knowledge could clear this up for you?
    An inflexible approach to this matter does not help when learning.
     
  19. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    Adam,


    help me out here.

    It ""looks" like an open face movement. Please explain why it is a hunter movement?
     
  20. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Hi Jeff
    Look at the position of balance wheel compared to crown - that is a "hunter" movement.(photo 3 of OPs post)
    compare that with the balance wheel compared to crown of a Lepine movement - very different layout.

    Look at your book, page 320 and 321 (under the cover) you will see "hunter" movements exactly like OPs
    You can also see a Lepine Layout in your book page 320 (top right) - that is a Lepine layout.

    The OPs watch is a "hunter' movement that has a standard wristwatch layout i.e crown at 3 and 12 at 12 o'clock - there would be NO reason to fit an offset 'Lepine" dial to a "hunter" movement unles you were trying to make it look something it is not.

    Regards
     
  21. bobbee53

    bobbee53 Banned

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    That is your opinion only, not an actual fact.
    Truth is, the watch has a dial fitted in the regular way, with posts that fit this movement.
    The dial is vintage/antique, as is the whole watch.
    The watch is not a fake, as you seem to infer, nor is it a frankenised one in my humble opinion.
     
  22. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    Sure, and that is true of everything that everyone posts here :) Maybe we should have a special emoticon, or font color, which posters could use to distinguish fact from opinion, but we don't. And if we did, I can't think of anything that would be written in the "fact" mode other than stuff like "it's Tuesday right now where I am".

    I'm interested to know what you wristwatch guys mean by an "offset Lepine" movement. Lepine never made a wristwatch in his life, so far as I know, and in his own field of pocket watch making he invented some bar designs which we pocket watch collectors refer to as "Lepine style". But I get the impression that you guys mean something quite different.
     
  23. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Lepine in 1770 invented a style of movement (open face) where he moved the balance wheel from the top plate to inbetween the plates with the train.
    It was an open face pocket watch.
    The movement layout is quite different to a "hunter" style movement layout (as explained above to Jeff).
    The OPs watch is NOT a Lepine style movement (layout) but a Hunter style layout.

    Since a HUNTER style watch already has crown at 3 and 12 o.clock at 12, there would be no reason (in my opinion) the fit the watch with a dial from a Lepine movement, unless one was trying to make it look, what it is not.

    Regards
    adam
     
  24. bobbee53

    bobbee53 Banned

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    I refer you to my statement in post#15:

    If a movement has a dial fitted in such a way that the crown is at 12 o'clock, it is an open faced configuration.

    If one were to fit a lepine movement with a dial in such a way that the crown is at 3 o'clock (something that is often seen in earlier ladies wrist watches) it would be in a hunter configuration.

    If as you say a watch set out in this way is a fake, which is what you have been inferring about the OP's watch, and that there would be "NO reason to fit a dial in such a way unless you were trying to make it look something it is not", how come so many of these Bulova-made "Rubaiyat" ladies watches here:
    http://mybulova.com/search-bulova-watches?term_node_tid_depth[]=1355&date_filter[value][year]=&field_watch_gender_value_many_to_one=All&field_case_shape_value_many_to_one=All&field_mov_jewels_value_many_to_one=All&field_mov_model_value=&field_mov_sn_value=&field_case_sn_value=&watch_comments=&watch_add_info=&field_watch_variant_value=

    and many of these Bulova Lady Maxim's here:
    http://mybulova.com/search-bulova-watches?term_node_tid_depth[]=209&date_filter[value][year]=&field_watch_gender_value_many_to_one=All&field_case_shape_value_many_to_one=All&field_mov_jewels_value_many_to_one=All&field_mov_model_value=&field_mov_sn_value=&field_case_sn_value=&watch_comments=&watch_add_info=&field_watch_variant_value=

    are configured in exactly the same way as theOP's watch?All the examples seen above are obviously ladies pendant watches retro-fitted with an extra lug at 6 o'clock position to make them into wrist watches. If one does actual research into these early wrist watches one will find this is in fact a common layout for early ladies wrist watch movements, and not uncommon in early men's wrist watches too.

    Here are just a few examples of the Bulova watches.



    1lmback.jpg 1rubaiyatback.jpg 1rubaiyatback2.jpg

    Here are the fronts of the last two.



    1rubaiyatfront.jpg 1rubaiyatfront2.jpg





    And yes, the OP's has lugs fitted at 9 and 3 o'clock, but the movement/dial layout is the same as the above examples.
     
  25. bobbee53

    bobbee53 Banned

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    The OP's watch is also using a similar copper dial as the Bulova examples, and a similar kind of movement so in my opinion dates to a similar time, the early teens to around 1920.
     
  26. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    #26 Adam Harris, Mar 4, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2016
    Savonette = Hunter
    The "movement" defines if its a "hunter" or a "Lepine" type NOT the dial

    CCE09022012_00000.jpg
     
  27. bobbee53

    bobbee53 Banned

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    I'm not sure how this is entirely relevant in regards to the OP's watch.
     
  28. Accutronitis

    Accutronitis Registered User

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    I don't know, this all seem pretty clear to me, the relationship between the position of the settings stem to the position of the balance wheel on the movement layout determines if its a "hunter" or a "Lepine" type, The dial has no part to play in what type of movement it is.......
     
  29. Accutronitis

    Accutronitis Registered User

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    #29 Accutronitis, Mar 4, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    It's entirely relevant if his watch never came with a Savonette = Hunter movement because that's what's in it right now......

    Hunter.....

    xyzzytom_295031

    Hunter......

    xyzzytom_295032

    that much is clear.....
     
  30. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    Seems like a hunter with an open face type dial, right?

    Sorry for seeming daft here, but hunter versus open face (what Adam refers to as Lepine and savonnete (btw, just a personal aside, I prefer 'hunter, open face, jewels,jewel cups, dial , dust cover etc rather than lepine, savonnette, chatons,cadran, cuvette..etc. but that is just me) is immaterial .

    If it were a hunter, why would they have put this cockeyed dial this way? If it were a hunter, wouldn't they have kept the same dial to show the seconds bit in the proper spot?

    And for any movement, one can simply move the dial around. This one in fact, could simply have the dial turned be more aesthec and correct.

    Am I wrong here?

    Jeff (help me...seriously... ) :)
     
  31. captainscarlet

    captainscarlet Registered User

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    There are a number of things that bother me about this watch notwithstanding the above "Hunter" V "Lepine" debate. 1. I am given to understand that Audemars Freres, were in business from shortly after the 1885 bankruptcy up until around 1900. 2. The text on the plates is all over the place, and not something I would expect from this company. 3. The movement itself looks like an early FHF calibre slightly modified to me. I would be interested to know where in the world the Ebay seller was located.
     
  32. bobbee53

    bobbee53 Banned

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    Jeff, you are right.
    Any movement without a second hand can be configured in any way one likes, simply by the repositioning of the dial.
     
  33. bobbee53

    bobbee53 Banned

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    Audemars Freres did simple as well as complex.;)



    1af.jpg


    The OP movement looks like an 8.75''' FHF Robert to me, a quality movement used by Gruen and Bulova amongst others, possibly Rolex too (Jeff, help me out here! :))?


    In this thread from mybulova:

    http://www.mybulova.com/node/4356

    is an FHF 10''' Robert movement of the exact same layout as the OP watch, crown at 12, balance at 6.

    ReverendRob calls the movement in question a Pendant style watch, and Rob is a Bulova-trained watchmaker held in much regard, he works on watches still and owns a shop/workshop in Niagara Falls.
    If you read his four very informative posts in that short thread, you will find some real pearls of wisdom.
    He certainly knows what he is talking about.
     
  34. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    #34 Adam Harris, Mar 5, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    Jeff it does no "seem" It is a 'hunter" movement - there is no doubt to that!

    So on the fact it "is" a "hunter" movement, it would not need to have a dial from an open face (Lepine) movement to make it a wristwatch!
    A "hunter" movement and dial makes a perfect conventional wristwatch - fact!

    So "probably" this watch has had a "Lepine" type dial fitted later to make it appear what is is not?

    I say "probably", but what is not a "probability" is that the movement is hunter style. If you are unsure, pleasec refer to your book, I already gave page numbers
    A

    - - - Updated - - -

    Thank you - sense prevails at last.
     
  35. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    "So "probably" this watch has had a "Lepine" type dial fitted later to make it appear what is is not?"
    -------

    Why would they do that?? Why would a person take properly configured hunter movement which fits correctly and aestheically into a wrist watch and put an open face dial on it to make it difficult to read??

    Are you suggesting this is a hunter movement with a turned around dial to make the watch look wrong on purpose?

    I guess this is possible, but it makes no real sense does it?

    Jeff
     
  36. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    Jeff, your summation is obviously correct. My assumption on the incorrectly located dial is that someone made a mistake - that seems most likely to me.
     
  37. bobbee53

    bobbee53 Banned

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    MartyR, I will post this advert again, the one Adam assumes has open face movements despite being unable to see the movements.
    If the OP watch dial has been "incorrectly located", and that "someone made a mistake" in doing so, how come the ladies watches in this advert are set out exactly the same as the OP watch with crown and 12 on the right of the case?
    The fact is many early watches are set out like this, it is how they often were put together.
    Probably (most likely) by re-using ladies pendant/chatelaine movements with originally set dial astll in place.
    attachment-5.jpg

    Hate repeating myself.
     
  38. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi,

    Has anyone considered that this might have been intended to be worn inside the wrist? Such things were made later, so why not at this time?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  39. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    #39 Adam Harris, Mar 5, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2016
    It makes a lot of sense!
    The answer to that is easy - "offset" crown dials in general sell for higher prices, because they give an "appearance" (impression) of being "WWI Trench" watch (as many were), but those were made with Lepine movements!

    There is nothing strange in this at all. only bit that is strange is "denial" of the movement type
    Adam
     
  40. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    I do not think so.
    If they had made a mistake, it would have been easily corrected.
    AND
    There were plenty Lepine movements around being used in early wristwatches.

    As I stated above, this dial (in my opinion from experience) was changed later to make this watch look more desirable - "an early WWI trench wristwatch"

    Regards
     
  41. bobbee53

    bobbee53 Banned

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    Absolutely incorrect.
    The watch has a small movement a non trench style dial but most telling of all, the case is just 24mm. across.

    Obviously a simple ladies watch, nothing more.
    Nothing shady, underhand or deceitful about the watch.
    You are under the wrong impression about this watch, and have been since the start.
    In my humble opinion, of course! ;-)




     
  42. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    That's a good question - do you have a good answer, other than "it's how they were often put together"?

    The reality is that the watches seen at the top of your advert could not have been read only with difficulty if worn on the wrist in the normal fashion. You have to come up with a reason for deliberately setting the dial to make it more difficult to read.

    It's interesting that they all have a clearly different style of band, made of cloth, and those "ribbon bands" are shown folded. That all makes me think that they were designed to be worn as pendants as you yourself suggest. That would make them pendant watches, and not wrist watches, would it not? Or perhaps Graham's suggestion is correct?

    Oh please don't feel obligated in this respect, Bob ;)
     
  43. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    lol.

    I hope others see the humor in this thread. Graham really threw it all for a loop wiht his idea. Awesome.

    Remember the advert above was from a watch case company who were selling cases to jobbers and wholeslaers etc. for use with existing movements. A cheaper open face watch movement with a dial that was not movable might look like the OP's watch. (and like the top three) (easily fixed with a dial repaint on non enamel dials). Those movements would have likley been open face (what Adam likes to refer to as "Lepine")

    The rest are clearly hunter movements.

    Logic, (my own logic, but still) would suggest that the OP's watch was not made "for the sole purpose of being difficult to read so it would be cool" though.

    That is just my opinion. No offense to Bobbee or ADam or MartyR.

    If no one objects, suggest we should voluntarily wind this thread down. Fun while it lasted.

    Jeff
     
  44. Accutronitis

    Accutronitis Registered User

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    Yes the watch top right has "Dainty Ribbon Guards" which does make them sound like a pendant watch.....
     
  45. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    The answer is because these watches "were" using "lepine" movements.
    We know well that manufacturers had stocks of "Lepine" movements, manufactured and intended for pocket or pendant watches, but then used (because they had to use or scrap them) in wristwatches, giving this "offset" crown style.

    And as pointed out, they do read perfectly if worn on the inside of the wrist!
     
  46. bobbee53

    bobbee53 Banned

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    The real answer to your question to me Martin is that it was a xheap and easy way to turn the old fashioned pendant into a popular new style called a wrist/wristlet watch.
    You only need your old pendant internals, and put it all in a new case (those small watches in the advert all have lugs fitted for wrist bands if you look), just like in the early 1912 Gruen wristlet watch advert, which also shows the crown at 12 oclock but set in the 3 oclock position, just like in the OP watch.
     
  47. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    No, I do not think so.

    The ribbons were used as wrist bands. Like Grosgrain. Right??

    Jeff
     
  48. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    Ok, so not sure why this thread had such "legs", but again, lets move on guys.

    Whether open face or hunter style, does it really matter?

    While Adam may well be correct that the "Wind at the 12" watches were open face ..(he uses a Swiss term "Lepine" for some reason) it is just ODD that they covered up the seconds bit.

    Oh well.

    LEt's move on from this train wreck guys. Nothing to see here.

    It has all been said! :)

    Jeff
     
  49. bobbee53

    bobbee53 Banned

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    Not quite, Jeff.

    If a watch set up like the OP watch was "made to deceive", what about this one?




    1905 gorhams ww.jpg

    No way of knowing what type of movement used either, open faced or hunter.
     
  50. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Jan 7, 2011
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    Hi,

    The important phrase here is "mounted officers"; when holding the reins, it is far more natural, (and sometimes even safer), to turn the wrist so that the inside is seen, hence the orientation of this dial. This is particularly important if both reins are in the left hand because the right is otherwise occupied with a weapon.

    Regards,

    Graham
     

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