Need help identifying...all help appreciated!

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by Leahlynn419, Sep 14, 2019.

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  1. Leahlynn419

    Leahlynn419 New Member

    Sep 14, 2019
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    Greetings! As fun as it it looking for little clues it gets a bit frustrating when hours of your time spent researching proves fruitless. I am pretty beside myself with this beautiful clock at the moment. I recently purchased at a estate sale and as lovely as it is, still cant manage to date or identify.
    The only stamp/ set of numbers I can find is on the backside of movement B&W P42 33533.
    The gold Roman numeral plate emblem with arrow pointing down is also curious.
    It has a coiled wire gong and solid ornate cherub pendulum. Both sides of case have removable wood latch inserts as well as a trap door in bottom where pendulum swings. Construction wise I'm led to believe this may be a Lenzkirch. B&W points to Berher & Wurker but the stamp isnt the same nor does it resemble. I should add I am VERY new to the clock buisness but I have stumbled upon multiple amazing antique clocks recently so I'm learning as I go. Please help me solve this mystery! I will attach photos....I look forward to your response.
    Blessings
    Leah

    20190914_030537.jpg 20190914_030405.jpg 20190914_031931.jpg 20190914_030529.jpg 20190914_031853.jpg 20190914_030508.jpg 20190914_032136.jpg 20190914_031847.jpg 20190914_030503.jpg 20190914_030414.jpg 20190914_031958.jpg 20190914_030611.jpg 20190914_032337.jpg 20190914_031603.jpg 20190914_031555.jpg 20190914_032045.jpg 20190914_031539.jpg
     
  2. JTD

    JTD Registered User

    Sep 27, 2005
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    Welcome to the board.

    The B& W in an oval is the trade mark of Berger & Wuerker. This clock has nothing to do with Lenzkirch that I can see.

    I would estimate the date around 1890-1900, but that is only an estimate,

    JTD
     
  3. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    Welcome to the board.

    To add to the information provided by JTD, the style of clock is "free swinger" and this style was produced by most, if not all, of the German clock companies during the period mentioned by JTD and extending to the beginning of WWI or so.

    I am not sure what you mean by "construction wise", but if you are referring to the case or dial or pendulum, it is very difficult to attribute any of those items to a particular maker. Many times, those items were made by independent firms - not the movement maker.

    Also, please explain what you refer to when you state "The gold Roman numeral plate emblem with arrow pointing down".

    Finally, it appears that you have the original key, which is something you do not see often with a clock of this age.

    Regards.
     
  4. CrazyClock Man

    CrazyClock Man Registered User

    Sep 11, 2013
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    Beautiful clock!
     
  5. JTD

    JTD Registered User

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    New2Clocks is right, this is a clock of the style known as the Free-Swinger (Freischwinger) style, which I forgot to mention.

    I, like new2Clocks, am also puzzled by you description of the 'gold Roman numeral plate'. Do you mean the pendulum bob (the oval piece at the bottom of the pendulum rod)? If so, it doesn't have any particular significance, it's just a decorative pendulum bob.

    JTD
     
  6. Leahlynn419

    Leahlynn419 New Member

    Sep 14, 2019
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    Thanks for the quick replies! This is what I am referring to, which is at the bottom of the clock. Does anyone know what this represents?
    What I meant "construction wise" is the side inserts and hidden trap door. I've noticed a lot of the same concepts in construction with Lenzkirch as well as similar if not the same hardware. Sorry....newbie here but we all need to start somewhere, yes? Thanks again!

    20190914_024931.jpg
     
  7. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    What you show is a "beat scale" and is used on wall clocks with pendulums.

    In theory, the tip of the pendulum will point to the arrow (the middle of your beat scale) when not in motion and will move equal distance to the left and to the right when in motion. I say in theory since a clock can be in perfect beat (a perfect sounding "tick-tock") and not point exactly to the arrow when stopped and will therefore not look like it is making equal distance left to right (i.e., it may move to the numeral II to left and not quite to the numeral II on the right). The clock does not need the beat scale to perform properly and is, arguably, a decorative item on the clock. BTW, your beat scale is quite decorative.

    With respect to your construction observations, I revert back to my original statement. I have two Lenzkirch wall clocks and neither have the trap doors. Perhaps someone who is a Lenzkirch specialist could specifically opine on the cases used by Lenzkirch free swingers, but I doubt this is a Lenzkirch-specific characteristic.

    Regards.
     
  8. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
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    That is the 'beat plaque'. It helps you keep track on the clocks position on the wall, using the pendulum like a plumb bob. And it also can measure the pendulum's amplitude.

    Many of the old cases are warped to such an extent that when the clock looks good on the wall the pendulum will not be centered on the plaque as it should be. This can be corrected but I usually leave the plaque as is. A tiny sharpie dot on the plaque can be used to indicate the place where pendulum tip needs to be for good case position.

    Willie X
     
  9. Tatyana

    Tatyana Registered User

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    Leahlynn419 likes this.
  10. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    I've also heard these clocks called 'wags' or 'wag-on-walls' by some of my older German customers who spoke no English.

    Question, are these terms interchangable or do they apply to somewhat different type clocks?

    Willie X
     
  11. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    Willie,

    I, too, have heard them referred to as wag-on-walls. I have also heard them referred to as Berliners.

    I believe the terms are interchangeable, as many terms in horology seem to be:).

    Regards.
     
  12. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Thanks new,
    There does seem to be an unwritten rule with clocks ... three or four names for everything.
    Willie X
     
  13. Leahlynn419

    Leahlynn419 New Member

    Sep 14, 2019
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    If the movement is M Bauerle which it appears to be ( thanks Tatyana!) How do I determine who the clockmaker is?
     
  14. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    Many German and French movement makers would sell unmarked movements "to the trade". The "trade" could be retailers, wholesalers, cabinet makers. The company who made the movement (in your case, Baeuerle) would allow the "trade" to imprint their own trademark (in this case, B&W) on the movement and sell the complete clock.

    I am not that familiar with Berger & Wuerker. Perhaps JTD (or someone else more knowledgeable than me) could let us know more of the history of B&W.

    If, for example, B&W were retailers, I would describe your clock as an M. Baeuerle clock retailed by the firm of B&W.

    But let's wait for those more knowledgeable of B&W to chime in (no pun intended:)).

    Regards.
     
  15. JTD

    JTD Registered User

    Sep 27, 2005
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    I am away from home (and therefore my books) at the moment, but I believe that new2clocks has it about right. As far as my memory goes, B&W did buy in unmarked movements and cased them. However, I would not have called B&W a retailer, rather a wholesaler, but they may have been both, I cannot be sure without further reference to the books I have not got at the moment.

    So, yes, a movement made by M. Baeuerle, probably cased and sold (probably wholesale) by B&W.

    JTD
     

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