Need help for dating the French movement

Juli

New Member
Apr 14, 2021
4
0
1
53
Country
Hi there,
would anyone have an idea of who had invented this type of striking counter and when?
Please ref. to the attached picture
My field experience tells me that it must be late 18xx but unfortunately, I have no better idea.
This solution may have been appeared and used earlier...

Any thoughts would be very helpful


IMG_20210414_230237.jpg
 

new2clocks

NAWCC Member
Apr 25, 2005
3,300
504
113
Pennsylvania
Country
Region
Welcome to the forum.

Your movement has a rack and snail striking mechanism, as opposed to a countwheel.

I do not know who invented the R&S or when, but if you show clear pictures of the back of the movement we may be able to narrow the date of manufacture.

Regards.
 

zedric

NAWCC Member
Aug 8, 2012
1,520
257
83
Country
Region
The type of striking, rack and snail, was invented in the 1670s, and its invention is usually attributed to Edward Barlow. Of course, the French movment you show is far, far later than that, and as you say probably dates to the 19th century

This article may be of interest..
 

agemo

Registered User
Apr 5, 2011
352
371
63
71
SAINT-NAZAIRE - FRANCE
Country
Region
Hi,
This striking comes to us from England, it was adapted to the watches by Mr. Edouard BARLOW and Daniel QUARE. In France, it is Honoré PONS who registers a patent for the "striking with rack for the movements of Paris" in 1829.

Amicalement GG
 

Juli

New Member
Apr 14, 2021
4
0
1
53
Country
Hi again,
I am very pleased with your response and helpful information
Special thanks to Zedric and Agemo!

This movement has been removed from my customer's small mantle clock as non-working stuff to be put back on track... The person is collecting 18 - early 19-century European clocks, mainly mantle and bracket ones.

I had particular doubts since

- I have immediately discovered the movement to be very fresh (pls ref to added pictures) I would say, it has been working for about 20 years instead of 200
- there is no typical maker's mark except stylish engraving specific to an earlier time "Charles DUTERTRE à Paris" which is the 18-century mark
- I have also noticed that engraving is made of numerous tiny lines which I guess is typical for modern CNCs instead of the 18th-century tools

after your kind advice that Pons was the first who adapted rack and snail striking in France, I have finally convinced myself that I am dealing with a replica or even later fake

By the way, do you usually pay attention to such things? How often do you face fake items?

PS.:
I have also attached a couple of pictures of the engraved naval telescope from my personal collection. This is a true late 18-century item having totally different type of engraving lines


IMG_20210415_175605.jpg IMG_20210415_175614.jpg IMG_20210415_175646.jpg IMG_20210414_193931.jpg IMG_20210414_194457.jpg IMG_20210415_210928.jpg IMG_20210415_211037.jpg IMG_20210414_201650.jpg IMG_20210414_201509.jpg
 

JimmyOz

Registered User
Feb 21, 2008
808
167
43
65
Gold Coast Qld
Country
Region
The movement looks original to me, the clean look is how most good repairers would clean it after repairing it and I also see a bush in there so someone has worked on it before. Date, maybe around 1870.
 

zedric

NAWCC Member
Aug 8, 2012
1,520
257
83
Country
Region
I would say the movement is 19th century but the signature is far more modern, done in the older style, and done to try to make someone think the clock is older than it is. You do see this from time to time, even on French clocks.
 

Juli

New Member
Apr 14, 2021
4
0
1
53
Country
I do agree that this movement has been made much earlier than yesterday.
My goal was to confirm that it is neither the late 18-century nor the early 19
My point of view is "replica" does not mean "bad"
I have worked on plenty of nice replicas dated the late 19 .. early 20-century and I can tell you that they are excellent. But I have always been jarred by the fact that someone sells objects under the guise of others and I'd like to fight it.


PS.: I've already gone through it. This movement is perfect and ready for another 100 years of service. The main reason for approaching the stupor is an abundance of old grease inside its mainspring barrels. It seems that the grease is not too old, someone did a good job on this movement, apparently in the last decades of the 20th century
 

jmclaugh

Registered User
Jun 1, 2006
5,305
240
63
Devon
Country
Region
It also looks 19th C to me, the silk suspension would suggest it dates to not much after 1850 or so. I. There is a Dutertre, no first name, listed in Paris circa 1840-90.
 

JimmyOz

Registered User
Feb 21, 2008
808
167
43
65
Gold Coast Qld
Country
Region
But I have always been jarred by the fact that someone sells objects under the guise of others and I'd like to fight it.
I think it is a fight you will lose, how many GF clocks are marrages, I think I have repaired more marrages the originals.
 

Juli

New Member
Apr 14, 2021
4
0
1
53
Country
Yes, I probably would have to give up clock repairs to succeed in making an online system for quick and accurate identification and dating of movements.

To summarize the topic - here are a few more photos indicating that the movement has been adapted to the case and silk suspension is not a native element here.

IMG_20210418_151837.jpg IMG_20210418_152122.jpg IMG_20210418_151810.jpg IMG_20210417_193616.jpg