Need assembly help!

[Trevorcarlepeddicord]

I own a brevet pocket watch that I took off the back Andy all the gears fell out, I desperately need help to assemble it back together. I would absolutely love to learn how to assemble and repair watches. But I have no knowledge. Any help would be grateful.

 

[Skutt50]

Welcome to the board......

I hope you mean that it fell apart after you removed some screws and lifted the gear train bridge...... This can be expected, so no worry there......

Firstly there are many different types of Brevet pocket watches so some pictures would be needed before we can give you any assembly advise.

Secondly, do you intend to do it yourself or are you looking for a watchmaker that can do the work?

Third, it seems you have no experience in watchmaking. If so, is it a famil hairloom or otherwise of sentimental value to you? If it is, do not play with it on your own. Not the best way to start a watchmaking hobby..... You should find some practise movements (ebay?) to take apart and assemble, so you make the unavoidable learners mistakes on some junk movements.

Fifth, You need to get a book on watch repair and read up on the proper procedures before you start playing with the movements.... (Search on the forum. Plenty of threads about books.)

Sorry if I sound discouraging, it is not my intension. I just want to try to guide you in what I think is the right direction.

 

[svenedin]

Nothing should fall out if you just take the back off the case. Please post photos so we can see what happened.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Trevorcarlepeddicord, and I'll add my welcome to Skutt's,

I own a brevet pocket watch that I took off the back Andy all the gears fell out, I desperately need help to assemble it back together. I would absolutely love to learn how to assemble and repair watches. But I have no knowledge. Any help would be grateful.

Stephen's request for some pictures is most important, especially since we shall almost certainly need to refer to parts of the watch by names which won't be familiar to you; like any other specialist subject, the jargon can take some time to learn. It would help if we knew a little more about your background and interests, since some of the skills and knowledge in other fields can have an application in watchmaking.

To start with a minor point, the word 'Brevet' on a watch from the French-speaking world simply means that a feature has been the subject of a form of provisional patent. Its presence, therefore, suggests that your watch is probably Swiss, because the principle watchmaking areas of Switzerland were and still are mainly French-speaking.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Trevorcarlepeddicord]

I was in a rush and forgot to mention I did take out the screws and undo the gear train bridge. The watch has some sentimental value as it was the first watch in my collection, but not so much I wouldn’t attempt to put it back together myself. I own a number of pocket watches and where I live there are no repair places. So it’s important that I learn how, but I can find absolutely no info on this particular watch. I’m attaching photos. Thank you so much.

 

[svenedin]

Thank you for the pictures. Did you let down the power of the mainspring before you took the bridge screws out?

Whereabout in the world are you?

The first job is to work out whether any parts have been lost. The second job is to work out whether any of the parts are damaged. Damage is much more likely if the watch had power when you took it apart as it would have flown apart almost explosively. Is this what happened?

So try to work out if anything is missing. Then look at each wheel (under magnification) and check if any of the teeth are missing or bent. Then look at the pivots of each wheel and check if any are snapped off (the pivots are the "axles" of the wheels that fit into the holes in the plates and they are usually very fine). Be very careful of the balance. It is good you have it upside down in the your picture. It is safe like that.

It looks like a pin-pallet escapement (Roskopf). This is good as they are robust.

Report back here with your findings. You may be in luck, from what I can see it may be retrievable.

Don't feel too bad. When I was about 8 years old I took apart my alarm clock with the mainspring wound and the whole thing exploded across the room. Lesson learned!! You'd think that might have put me off clocks and watches. It didn't, it only fascinated me more.........

 

[Trevorcarlepeddicord]

It must not have been wound because nothing went flying and the spring didn’t unwind hard, just a tiny bit. I assume all the parts are here, each has all its teeth and no breaks or chips. I didn’t even think about missing pieces. But I can’t find a single piece of info or photo of the back opened on this watch, only a few pictures of the dial on google. I live in Florida by the way.
P.s. I love pocket watches and this has me more determined than ever to fix it now that it’s in pieces. Thank you for replying.

 

[Trevorcarlepeddicord]

Hi Trevorcarlepeddicord, and I'll add my welcome to Skutt's,



Stephen's request for some pictures is most important, especially since we shall almost certainly need to refer to parts of the watch by names which won't be familiar to you; like any other specialist subject, the jargon can take some time to learn. It would help if we knew a little more about your background and interests, since some of the skills and knowledge in other fields can have an application in watchmaking.

To start with a minor point, the word 'Brevet' on a watch from the French-speaking world simply means that a feature has been the subject of a form of provisional patent. Its presence, therefore, suggests that your watch is probably Swiss, because the principle watchmaking areas of Switzerland were and still are mainly French-speaking.

Regards,

Graham

I have no skills in fixing watches or how they work, other that a love for pocket watches themselves. I’m hoping to be able to fix this one and continue learning how to repair And assemble clocks and watches. I’ve found videos and books on every other kind of watch repair but like I said can’t find any info on the one I posted about. If I need to add more pictures of different angles please let me know.

 

[roughbarked]

It is a pin pallet alarm watch.
Probably the Baumgartner 222. bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Baumgartner 222

 

[gmorse]

Hi Trevorcarlepeddicord,

But I can’t find a single piece of info or photo of the back opened on this watch, only a few pictures of the dial on google.

Once you become more familiar with watches in general, you probably won't need a specific guide to your watch, they all work on the same basic mechanical principles, although alarm watches do have that additional complication. A mechanical watch must have a power source, (the spring), a method of governing the release of the power, (the escapement), a connection between the power and that governor, (the wheel train), and a display of the time, (the dial and hands), usually visual but not necessarily.

The standard reference books like Perkins or De Carle are a good introduction to the vocabulary and architecture of watches and would be a good place to start your journey.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Skutt50]

I would like to mention that, unfortunately, you tried to disassemble the watch in the case.

The correct procedure is to remove the winding stem, the front bezel and screws holding the movement in the case.

You then remove the movement from the case before you start any work on the movement.

A question:

Early in this thread you wrote:

I wouldn’t attempt to put it back together myself.

Then later on you wrote:

I’m hoping to be able to fix this one and continue learning how to repair And assemble clocks and watches.

Do you intend to fix this yourself? If so take plenty of pictures of all parts before you remove anything.
What has been removed so far, we can probably guide you to get back in place.

 

[Skutt50]

I had a closer look at your pictures and got a bit puzzeled.

In the picture of the mainplate it looks like part of the center wheel arbor is still in the movement.

Could you post a sharp picture of the center wheel taken from the side. (The center wheel is the biggest brass wheel, besides the mainspring barrel.)

Also, the two screws holding the movement are located at the rim of the mainplate at 3 and 8 o'clock. They have half heads.

To loosen the stem there is a screw at 9:30 that you unscrew a few turns. Then you should be able to remove the stem.

Good luck.

 

[roughbarked]

The wheel you are looking at is the alarm/hour wheel. It is mounted on a post.
If you look at it you can see the indent that the alarm indicator drops into to set off the alarm at the time set.

 

[Skutt50]

Thanks roughbarked.

It has been a while since I worked on an alarm pocket watch. Sorry if I caused any unnecerssary worries......

 

[Trevorcarlepeddicord]

Thanks roughbarked.

It has been a while since I worked on an alarm pocket watch. Sorry if I caused any unnecerssary worries......

I went back and looked at what I wrote, I said “but not so much I wouldn’t attempt to put it back together myself.” I will take pictures of the part you asked about. Thank you so much! Any help is greatly appreciated more than you know.

 

[Trevorcarlepeddicord]

Hi Trevorcarlepeddicord,



Once you become more familiar with watches in general, you probably won't need a specific guide to your watch, they all work on the same basic mechanical principles, although alarm watches do have that additional complication. A mechanical watch must have a power source, (the spring), a method of governing the release of the power, (the escapement), a connection between the power and that governor, (the wheel train), and a display of the time, (the dial and hands), usually visual but not necessarily.

The standard reference books like Perkins or De Carle are a good introduction to the vocabulary and architecture of watches and would be a good place to start your journey.

Regards,

Graham

Thank you, I’m ordering some books on watch repair and assembly. I will definitely look into that book as well.

 

[Trevorcarlepeddicord]

I had a closer look at your pictures and got a bit puzzeled.

In the picture of the mainplate it looks like part of the center wheel arbor is still in the movement.

Could you post a sharp picture of the center wheel taken from the side. (The center wheel is the biggest brass wheel, besides the mainspring barrel.)

Also, the two screws holding the movement are located at the rim of the mainplate at 3 and 8 o'clock. They have half heads.

To loosen the stem there is a screw at 9:30 that you unscrew a few turns. Then you should be able to remove the stem.

Good luck.

I hope this is what you asked for, if you need more please let me know.

 

[Skutt50]

That is the mainspring barrel.

If you loook at your fourth picture above, I mean the brass wheel most to the left which looks extra shiny. (I guess it is because of the light.)

Perhaps not a problem as per roughbarkeds earlier comment.

 

[Trevorcarlepeddicord]

I can’t tell which part you mean so I’m just adding photos of all the gears.

 

[Skutt50]

This is the wheel I was refering to but I don't think it is a problem any more.

In most watches this wheel (the center wheel) has an extended arbor on which the canon pinion is attached. It is not unheard of that the extended arbor is broken. If I understand correctly this watch has a different desing so what looks like a broken center arbor in your picture is nothing but the end of a post for the hands etc...

 

[Skutt50]

Seems the picture disapeared from my previous post. Sorry!

 

[Trevorcarlepeddicord]

View attachment 644249
Seems the picture disapeared from my previous post. Sorry!
[/QUOTE
Doesn’t it seem like I have all the parts? I had to order a watch repair kit from amazon along with a book for beginners. It al arrives March 19. I’ve tried to at least find a photo of this watch with a picture of the back opened or a assembly guide. But to no avail. I’m hoping you can help. Thank you.

 

[Trevorcarlepeddicord]

When the tweezers arrive I’ll post a photo of it sideways.

 

[Skutt50]

I can't say if all parts are there but you will find out.......

Do you intend to put it together as is and clean later or do you want to clean it first? As I said earlier, document everything. When you become more experienced you don't need as many photos but initialy you can never have to many.

I think you need to remove the movement from the case before you do anything else. Also the hands and dial should be removed.

In theory it should not be hard to get things back to its respective positions.......... This is the way I would go to locate the positions for the wheels. (You might want to have a chart with names of watch parts handy ...)

Set the steel wheel with saw teeth shaped teeth aside for now.

You should not have any problems to locate where the balance, pallet fork and the ecape wheel fits. (Wait with installing the balance and pallet fork until later.) The mainspring barrel is also not an issue. Now you only have two wheels to locate ....
The wheel with an extended pivot for the seconds hand should also come natural. Look at the dial where the seconds hand fits and you can't go wrong. The only wheel left should close the gear train so it will only fit in one position. With the pallet fork and balance installed, the watch should now be in a state where it should run.

You now should have one piece left to locate. A steel wheel with saw teeth shaped teeth. This wheel will operate the hammer that creates the ringing. You have to look for the hammer and where the wheel will fit so it operates the hammer.........

I hope you can follow my description. If to brief, let us know and we might be able to give more detailed instructions.....

 

[Trevorcarlepeddicord]

I can't say if all parts are there but you will find out.......

Do you intend to put it together as is and clean later or do you want to clean it first? As I said earlier, document everything. When you become more experienced you don't need as many photos but initialy you can never have to many.

I think you need to remove the movement from the case before you do anything else. Also the hands and dial should be removed.

In theory it should not be hard to get things back to its respective positions.......... This is the way I would go to locate the positions for the wheels. (You might want to have a chart with names of watch parts handy ...)

Set the steel wheel with saw teeth shaped teeth aside for now.

You should not have any problems to locate where the balance, pallet fork and the ecape wheel fits. (Wait with installing the balance and pallet fork until later.) The mainspring barrel is also not an issue. Now you only have two wheels to locate ....
The wheel with an extended pivot for the seconds hand should also come natural. Look at the dial where the seconds hand fits and you can't go wrong. The only wheel left should close the gear train so it will only fit in one position. With the pallet fork and balance installed, the watch should now be in a state where it should run.

You now should have one piece left to locate. A steel wheel with saw teeth shaped teeth. This wheel will operate the hammer that creates the ringing. You have to look for the hammer and where the wheel will fit so it operates the hammer.........

I hope you can follow my description. If to brief, let us know and we might be able to give more detailed instructions.....

Okay, I undid the half head screws but the movement won’t separate from the case. Here’s a picture, do you see anything that should be removed? I assume the stem needs to be removed, but can’t figure out how.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Trevorcarlepeddicord,

I assume the stem needs to be removed, but can’t figure out how.

I think you need to back out this screw a few turns, not all the way but enough to loosen the setting lever on the other side of the plate into which it's screwed.



You should then be able to withdraw the winding stem, but be careful not to lose the two wheels mounted on it which will become free when it's removed.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Trevorcarlepeddicord]

Hi Trevorcarlepeddicord,


I think you need to back out this screw a few turns, not all the way but enough to loosen the setting lever on the other side of the plate into which it's screwed.

View attachment 644722

You should then be able to withdraw the winding stem, but be careful not to lose the two wheels mounted on it which will become free when it's removed.

Regards,

Graham

Awesomeness! I did it and the stem came out. Thank you!

 

[gmorse]

Hi Trevorcarlepeddicord,

Good, now when you come to reassemble it, don't forget to put that screw in before you replace the train bridge.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Trevorcarlepeddicord]

Okay so I have the watch put off the case Andy this is what I’m working with. I finally have the tools I hope. I’m ready to begin assembly. Thank you for all the help! Let me know if I’m missing anything.

 

[Trevorcarlepeddicord]

I can't say if all parts are there but you will find out.......

Do you intend to put it together as is and clean later or do you want to clean it first? As I said earlier, document everything. When you become more experienced you don't need as many photos but initialy you can never have to many.

I think you need to remove the movement from the case before you do anything else. Also the hands and dial should be removed.

In theory it should not be hard to get things back to its respective positions.......... This is the way I would go to locate the positions for the wheels. (You might want to have a chart with names of watch parts handy ...)

Set the steel wheel with saw teeth shaped teeth aside for now.

You should not have any problems to locate where the balance, pallet fork and the ecape wheel fits. (Wait with installing the balance and pallet fork until later.) The mainspring barrel is also not an issue. Now you only have two wheels to locate ....
The wheel with an extended pivot for the seconds hand should also come natural. Look at the dial where the seconds hand fits and you can't go wrong. The only wheel left should close the gear train so it will only fit in one position. With the pallet fork and balance installed, the watch should now be in a state where it should run.

You now should have one piece left to locate. A steel wheel with saw teeth shaped teeth. This wheel will operate the hammer that creates the ringing. You have to look for the hammer and where the wheel will fit so it operates the hammer.........

I hope you can follow my description. If to brief, let us know and we might be able to give more detailed instructions.....

I miss definitely going to need more details, like where the gears go, and the pallet fork and main spring. I can’t figure it out.

 

[Skutt50]

The mainspring should fit were you have a big round recess in the main plate.

The balance will fit where you have a bearing with an "endstone". Look from the front side and you will find one pivot hole with a small (0.5cm ?) cover plate. This will match with how the balance cock fits on one of the pilars on the opposite side.

Now try to check where the fourth wheel (which holds the seconds hand) fits. Look at the dial and where the seconds hand is to be located. Put the wheel in place.

Now take the escape wheel and mount so it interacts with the fourth wheel. There should only be one pivot hole to choose where the wheels interacts.

Between the escape wheel and balance should now be one hole where the pallet fork will fit.

The center wheel should interact with the mainspring barrel and, again, there should only be one pivot hole that allows this interaction.

The last wheel will be between the fourth wheel and the center wheel. You should only find one pivot hole which allows the third wheel to interac with both wheels on either side.

I have a hard time making out what is pivot holes and not in your picture but here is an ATTEMPT to guess where the wheels will go. (Don't get upset if I am wrong! I need to hold it in may hands to be sure!)



Which way to turn the wheels? Well Balance, pallet fork, fourth wheel (with second hand pivot) and mainspring should be self explanatory. The remaining whees will only fit one way to interact with the adjasent wheels.

Here is a picture that might come in handy:

Watch Glossary - 8

Give it a try and see how it goes. Good luck!

 

[roughbarked]

and.. for the alarm.

 

[Skutt50]

Thanks for the help roughbarked.

I left that out initialy not to complicate things AND I was not sure how they would fit. I was hoping to sort that out once the rest of the parts were cleared.....

 

[Trevorcarlepeddicord]

Those pictures with the lines is exactly what I needed. Okay I’m going to go for it and let you know my progress. Thank you so much!!!!